Passing Game?

[learningthegame]

With the whole football world falling head over heals for the latest craze the spread offense, which utilizes four and five wide outs at a time, the "most under utilized" player on the field is becoming even more obsolete. Which begs two questions, can these teams survive the long haul and will Tight End defeicient ball teams continue to succeed? In addition the West Coast system that allows a team to quickly exploit the creases in zone coverages is nearly an antiquated notion.

 

I am curious to hear a variety of football minds comment on the previous question as well as hear your thoughts on why we are seeing less of the 3 and 5 step quick strike passing game.

[beethoven]

With the whole football world falling head over heals for the latest craze the spread offense, which utilizes four and five wide outs at a time, the "most under utilized" player on the field is becoming even more obsolete. Which begs two questions, can these teams survive the long haul and will Tight End defeicient ball teams continue to succeed? In addition the West Coast system that allows a team to quickly exploit the creases in zone coverages is nearly an antiquated notion.

 

I am curious to hear a variety of football minds comment on the previous question as well as hear your thoughts on why we are seeing less of the 3 and 5 step quick strike passing game.

 

 

As long as your scoring and not putting your defense in impossible situations...then run what ever best suits your people.

[fromthetop2]

Which level of football are you talking about?

 

Yes, the spread offense (or a variation of it) is becoming the flavor of the month, much like the evolutionary cycle of wing-T, single-wing, split-T, veer, wishbone, I-back, West Coast at colleges across the country. High Schools mimic colleges. Pros don't get as fancy, of course. Why? Because of superior athletes on defense and very sound schemes.

 

High Schools don't have that luxury. Each team has all levels of "athletes" in their program, as well as abilities of coaches. A smart coach runs an offense to suit the talent he is given- not the other way around.

 

One-three step passing patterns (which are heavily dependent on timing) are a good bet if you don't have the best line, but good receivers. Five-seven works if your QB has the arm, you've got a good line, and decent wideouts. If you have not much in the skill department you primarily run the ball.

 

HS Coaches may install the spread to appear current, score more points, confuse the defenses that aren't up to speed in attacking it, or attract talent that might not be coming out for football. It will work only as long as he has the personnel to run it- and plays against better coached defenses.

[learningthegame]

I was primarily referring to the collegiate level and downward.

Which level of football are you talking about?

 

Yes, the spread offense (or a variation of it) is becoming the flavor of the month, much like the evolutionary cycle of wing-T, single-wing, split-T, veer, wishbone, I-back, West Coast at colleges across the country. High Schools mimic colleges. Pros don't get as fancy, of course. Why? Because of superior athletes on defense and very sound schemes.

 

High Schools don't have that luxury. Each team has all levels of "athletes" in their program, as well as abilities of coaches. A smart coach runs an offense to suit the talent he is given- not the other way around.

 

One-three step passing patterns (which are heavily dependent on timing) are a good bet if you don't have the best line, but good receivers. Five-seven works if your QB has the arm, you've got a good line, and decent wideouts. If you have not much in the skill department you primarily run the ball.

 

HS Coaches may install the spread to appear current, score more points, confuse the defenses that aren't up to speed in attacking it, or attract talent that might not be coming out for football. It will work only as long as he has the personnel to run it- and plays against better coached defenses.

[compusatman]

With the whole football world falling head over heals for the latest craze the spread offense, which utilizes four and five wide outs at a time, the "most under utilized" player on the field is becoming even more obsolete. Which begs two questions, can these teams survive the long haul and will Tight End defeicient ball teams continue to succeed? In addition the West Coast system that allows a team to quickly exploit the creases in zone coverages is nearly an antiquated notion.

 

I am curious to hear a variety of football minds comment on the previous question as well as hear your thoughts on why we are seeing less of the 3 and 5 step quick strike passing game.

 

If there is an underutilyzed skill player on your spread O then you are not using the spread to it's maximum potential. RB's running traps and backside screens, QB's sending out 4 fly patterns and then picking up 30yrds, TE's running sideline routes, WR's doing the rest. That makes for a 500 yrd total O easy. And that's why everybody wants to run it. Avg score in the 40's, avg rushing 250 yds, avg passing 250 yds. It's a crowd pleaser, a D killer, and it's fun for the linemen. Now if you don't see it this way then you ain't running it right.

[Guest workinprogress]

Im currently learning all of the facets of the spread from a guy that definately knows his stuff. I implement a basic set of spread formations and schemes into the minds of 13 and 14 year olds. We obviously dont have the mental capacity to get real complicated but it works for what we need. It spreads the field and puts our playmakers in the position to get positive yards each play. I have ran the wing, I, shotwing, and not the spread and what I have found in my limited time is that in order for any offense or defense to work the coach has to believe in the system and has to get the players to buy into it as well. Some will say that you have to adapt to your players, some will say you get the players to adapt to your system, I say your players will adapt to whatever you believe in and convince them to do the same. If you have a decent line and some play makers you can "spread" the wealth more evenly and cause each one of them to be a threat instead of being one dimensional like some of the other offenses become.

[compusatman]

Im currently learning all of the facets of the spread from a guy that definately knows his stuff. I implement a basic set of spread formations and schemes into the minds of 13 and 14 year olds. We obviously dont have the mental capacity to get real complicated but it works for what we need. It spreads the field and puts our playmakers in the position to get positive yards each play. I have ran the wing, I, shotwing, and not the spread and what I have found in my limited time is that in order for any offense or defense to work the coach has to believe in the system and has to get the players to buy into it as well. Some will say that you have to adapt to your players, some will say you get the players to adapt to your system, I say your players will adapt to whatever you believe in and convince them to do the same. If you have a decent line and some play makers you can "spread" the wealth more evenly and cause each one of them to be a threat instead of being one dimensional like some of the other offenses become.

 

I'm not sure the spread is for middle schoolers. The spread is a very complex O in the light that is plain and simple. It is a common sense offense. From the blocking assignments to the RB lanes to wideout routes it is a different approach if you are running it correctly. The spread only becomes a major success story when all skill positions AND linemen are on the same page. It took my son 3 years to become acclimated with it. It took our team 5 years to perfect it. It is a system. Run by a system coach. With an understanding that you need high calibre' QB's to run it. In my view middle schoolers need to perfect the basics. Blocking, tackling, proper positional technique for the skill positions. I think for the linemen to understand the spread they first need to understand conventional blocking. And most importantly, the QB/WR timing is an extremely time consuming process.

[rappy]

I'm not sure the spread is for middle schoolers. The spread is a very complex O in the light that is plain and simple. It is a common sense offense. From the blocking assignments to the RB lanes to wideout routes it is a different approach if you are running it correctly. The spread only becomes a major success story when all skill positions AND linemen are on the same page. It took my son 3 years to become acclimated with it. It took our team 5 years to perfect it. It is a system. Run by a system coach. With an understanding that you need high calibre' QB's to run it. In my view middle schoolers need to perfect the basics. Blocking, tackling, proper positional technique for the skill positions. I think for the linemen to understand the spread they first need to understand conventional blocking. And most importantly, the QB/WR timing is an extremely time consuming process.

 

I can see where WIP is coming from. If the middle school is feeding a high school running the spread, then a simple variation version of the spread from the High School can be taught to the Middle School feeder. The sooner they learn, the easier they will develop and transition into the more complex high school spread offense.

[Guest workinprogress]

If there is an underutilyzed skill player on your spread O then you are not using the spread to it's maximum potential. RB's running traps and backside screens, QB's sending out 4 fly patterns and then picking up 30yrds, TE's running sideline routes, WR's doing the rest. That makes for a 500 yrd total O easy. And that's why everybody wants to run it. Avg score in the 40's, avg rushing 250 yds, avg passing 250 yds. It's a crowd pleaser, a D killer, and it's fun for the linemen. Now if you don't see it this way then you ain't running it right.

 

I definately understand your point of view. I am the only one in my city, that I know of that goes four and definately the only one that ever goes five wide. However if every team is running the power i, the wing, or even the wishbone and is running the ball 90 percent of the time or more, then why not throw something different at the other team to confuse them if nothing else. Ive ran the shot wing for one year and the spread for two years now. Like I said it is a basic version of the spread just like the school that we feed into. I use the same terminology, the same routes, the same hand signals, everything just watered down. We have four basic running plays but can run them out of 8 different (looking) formations. The blocking is simple, the running lanes are similar if not the same, and it works even with middle schoolers. One of my running plays is even an option which we never see. If you practice the heck out of it then it will work. That doesnt even take into consideration that we only have 4 pass plays and two of them are screens. I wouldnt ever try to complicate things but making it look complicated and keeping it basic is a good combination imo. Like Rapbwood said it definately helps the high school that we feed into and gives them at least one year if not two is some cases of learning the basics of that system.

[compusatman]

I definately understand your point of view. I am the only one in my city, that I know of that goes four and definately the only one that ever goes five wide. However if every team is running the power i, the wing, or even the wishbone and is running the ball 90 percent of the time or more, then why not throw something different at the other team to confuse them if nothing else. Ive ran the shot wing for one year and the spread for two years now. Like I said it is a basic version of the spread just like the school that we feed into. I use the same terminology, the same routes, the same hand signals, everything just watered down. We have four basic running plays but can run them out of 8 different (looking) formations. The blocking is simple, the running lanes are similar if not the same, and it works even with middle schoolers. One of my running plays is even an option which we never see. If you practice the heck out of it then it will work. That doesnt even take into consideration that we only have 4 pass plays and two of them are screens. I wouldnt ever try to complicate things but making it look complicated and keeping it basic is a good combination imo. Like Rapbwood said it definately helps the high school that we feed into and gives them at least one year if not two is some cases of learning the basics of that system.

 

I don't disagree with your method or your goal. And yes, I feel the exposure is essential for the experience to flow correctly once they become Frosh. My point and it is critical is that basic old school football is essential for a positive understanding of the "advantages" of the spread. Many will disagree arguing that experience with Atomic Bombs is not necessary when learning to use Lasers. I, however, disagree and will argue that middle schoolers need time spent on basics...hardcore old school football. Implementing a bit of spread...fine, but not as the complete and total offensive package. No, they must understand basic arithmetic before they advance to calculus. The transitional year should be the Frosh year. Most consider this year a wash anyway except for the ultra-athletic D1 bound athlete. Instead of writing it off as a wash I feel it is the perfect (only) time to bring them up to the next level instead to babysit them until the Soph year to wait and see who will mature enough to step up to the plate and have the ability to learn new things. As I said, some education and implementation of the Spread in middle school I think is fine...but not the full blown package. The 8th grade year is a showcase year for them to bloom and capitalize on what they have been taught. A confidence imspiring year. Because they need this confidence to catapult them past the Frosh year. Because I think we all can agree the Frosh year is a zoo. So what am I saying? Working 100% out of the Spread formation in middle school is a mistake that will show up in later years. Just like predominately running the WingT in HS is a mistake. Why? The college bound athlete needs to have a smorgasboard of athletic ability and exposure. The spread gives this...but only if a foundation of essential football skills are mastered. And the mastery requires cutting teeth on tried and true methods.

 

Case in point: Tennessee's new RB coach came from Florida. He left the Gators because, "I can't get RB's to commit to our program because we run the spread. They know they are not going to get the ball." That means the majority of D1 RB producing schools run anything but the spread. And their spoiled brat RB's are used to getting 35-40 carries a game! Hades, who couldn't have 3000yds a season inside these parameters. This is an anomalee for many reasons. First you can run out of the Spread, and if you are running it correctly, as well if not better than traditional running offenses. Second, they (the RB's) are limited in their abilities by not having varied skills (such as the ability to run out of the spread). Third, the per carrie average of RB's out of the Spread is much higher than traditional offenses even though the total number of carries is substantially less. The Spread, when run correctly, "Spreads" the "glory" around equally and makes for a true team offense.

 

In summation I feel that a hardcore basic set of abilities is sustained by traditional offenses. As well I feel that "techno" offenses (the Spread) are essential for a mature set of expertice. And the timeline for the education of such is crutial. This type of success requires systematic program coaching and the evolution of talent influx will eventually follow the gravity. And when it becomes the natural selection a dynasty is created with tradition lasting decades.

 

So, you want to talk about women now?

[Guest workinprogress]

I don't disagree with your method or your goal. And yes, I feel the exposure is essential for the experience to flow correctly once they become Frosh. My point and it is critical is that basic old school football is essential for a positive understanding of the "advantages" of the spread. Many will disagree arguing that experience with Atomic Bombs is not necessary when learning to use Lasers. I, however, disagree and will argue that middle schoolers need time spent on basics...hardcore old school football. Implementing a bit of spread...fine, but not as the complete and total offensive package. No, they must understand basic arithmetic before they advance to calculus. The transitional year should be the Frosh year. Most consider this year a wash anyway except for the ultra-athletic D1 bound athlete. Instead of writing it off as a wash I feel it is the perfect (only) time to bring them up to the next level instead to babysit them until the Soph year to wait and see who will mature enough to step up to the plate and have the ability to learn new things. As I said, some education and implementation of the Spread in middle school I think is fine...but not the full blown package. The 8th grade year is a showcase year for them to bloom and capitalize on what they have been taught. A confidence imspiring year. Because they need this confidence to catapult them past the Frosh year. Because I think we all can agree the Frosh year is a zoo. So what am I saying? Working 100% out of the Spread formation in middle school is a mistake that will show up in later years. Just like predominately running the WingT in HS is a mistake. Why? The college bound athlete needs to have a smorgasboard of athletic ability and exposure. The spread gives this...but only if a foundation of essential football skills are mastered. And the mastery requires cutting teeth on tried and true methods.

 

Case in point: Tennessee's new RB coach came from Florida. He left the Gators because, "I can't get RB's to commit to our program because we run the spread. They know they are not going to get the ball." That means the majority of D1 RB producing schools run anything but the spread. And their spoiled brat RB's are used to getting 35-40 carries a game! Hades, who couldn't have 3000yds a season inside these parameters. This is an anomalee for many reasons. First you can run out of the Spread, and if you are running it correctly, as well if not better than traditional running offenses. Second, they (the RB's) are limited in their abilities by not having varied skills (such as the ability to run out of the spread). Third, the per carrie average of RB's out of the Spread is much higher than traditional offenses even though the total number of carries is substantially less. The Spread, when run correctly, "Spreads" the "glory" around equally and makes for a true team offense.

 

In summation I feel that a hardcore basic set of abilities is sustained by traditional offenses. As well I feel that "techno" offenses (the Spread) are essential for a mature set of expertice. And the timeline for the education of such is crutial. This type of success requires systematic program coaching and the evolution of talent influx will eventually follow the gravity. And when it becomes the natural selection a dynasty is created with tradition lasting decades.

 

So, you want to talk about women now?

 

 

I agree with a lot of your points but do disagree with a couple. I definately see and understand your side of things though. And I think that most people would probably agree with you and not me in this case. I just know that it works for me and my kids buy into it and we are highly successful. Last year we lost two games and it was the worst season I have ever had. Lets just agree to disagree on some of this! As far as women go --- I'll pass on that one for now.

[compusatman]

I agree with a lot of your points but do disagree with a couple. I definately see and understand your side of things though. And I think that most people would probably agree with you and not me in this case. I just know that it works for me and my kids buy into it and we are highly successful. Last year we lost two games and it was the worst season I have ever had. Lets just agree to disagree on some of this! As far as women go --- I'll pass on that one for now.

 

I'm not trying to put you under the thumb. But instead my argument is not for W's and L's but for solid preparation of the high school bound athlete. Should that be your only concern? Of course not! You are a winner. You want to win.

 

But consider this: You have a concrete mould for garden steps. The mould is square. You want to make octogon shaped concrete steps. What do you do? Your answer is that you chisel of each corner and create 4 additional sides to form an octogon. My answer is to create a new mold. Both can be effective. But only one will stand the test of time.

 

In my opinion, coaching is a very important job. The values and substance imparted to an athlete last a lifetime. Make the utterances you speak, the actions you take, and the demands you make be life altering. As well, make the choices you make for X's and O's reflect the same inspiration. The W's and L's are merely a by-product of your phlosophy. Preparation equals Celebration.