RHS vs. CPA

[math man]

this argument sounds good, but really it is fundamentally weak (for simply arguing public-private).

 

Okay, you make a reasonable counter-point that my statement is weak, but you don't follow up with the "why', so I'll ask: where is my statement weak?

 

 

the major difference in (for example) CPA and Rockwood is that Rockwood is who-knows-where in east tennessee with a pop. approx. 5,000 and CPA is in suburban nashville with a much greater population et cetera. now compare CPA to a public school in nashville and your so-called "private school advantage" pretty much goes out the window.

 

Okay, let's compare CPA to another Nashville or Memphis Metro Single A public school. I know Memphis has only Middle College (there's one), but that's a tech school and not a general high school. Kids option to go there for training, so it's not a good comparison. What's a Single A public school in Nashville with a big population base to choose from so we can compare CPA with it. Can you think of one?

 

Simply put, you can't really because by definition, a LARGE population base will require a LARGE public school i.e. bigger than Single A. Therefore, while the premise of the argument is VERY sound i.e. compare a Single A private school with a large population pool to a Single A public school with a large population pool, it simply can't happen because there are no small public schools supported by big towns.

 

Now, you COULD at one time when Memphis was open enrollment. But, their Single A basketball teams like Bolton, Westside, and Mitchell didn't fare well because . . . uh . . . nevermind .

 

In a sense, these teams acted a psuedo-private schools offering athletes a small school to shine in. And did they ever! Same thing happens when a small private school opens up in a large metro area.

Edited March 16, 2004 by math man

[youshouldstay25]

Okay, you make a reasonable counter-point that my statement is weak, but you don't follow up with the "why', so I'll ask: where is my statement weak?

 

 

 

 

Okay, let's compare CPA to another Nashville or Memphis Metro Single A public school. I know Memphis has only Middle College (there's one), but that's a tech school and not a general high school. Kids option to go there for training, so it's not a good comparison. What's a Single A public school in Nashville with a big population base to choose from so we can compare CPA with it. Can you think of one?

 

Simply put, you can't really because by definition, a LARGE population base will require a LARGE public school i.e. bigger than Single A. Therefore, while the premise of the argument is VERY sound i.e. compare a Single A private school with a large population pool to a Single A public school with a large population pool, it simply can't happen because there are no small public schools supported by big towns.

 

Now, you COULD at one time when Memphis was open enrollment. But, their Single A basketball teams like Bolton, Westside, and Mitchell didn't fare well because . . . uh . . . nevermind .

 

In a sense, these teams acted a psuedo-private schools offering athletes a small school to shine in. And did they ever! Same thing happens when a small private school opens up in a large metro area.

ok first things first... i wasn't really refuting your argument. i said your argument was good and this one about the selection pool is relative. private schools in nashville might have a large selection pool, but does that mean all do? my point is simply that public vs. private is not the only, nor the main, subject of controversy. While we're on this topic, what about magnet schools like hume fogg in nashville?

 

secondly, you're right... you can't compare a single A private school with a large population pool to a single A public school with a large (or small) population pool... this is why i find it particularly interesting that people are so certain that schools like cpa have a decided advantage over their own public school.

[math man]

While we're on this topic, what about magnet schools like hume fogg in nashville?

 

Excellent question, and I wish I had an answer. I don't think the magnet schools have been around long enough to get any historical data on them. Maybe in 3 or 4 years, we can make an educated observation.

 

secondly, you're right... you can't compare a single A private school with a large population pool to a single A public school with a large (or small) population pool... this is why i find it particularly interesting that people are so certain that schools like CPA have a decided advantage over their own public school.

 

Okay, the last statement is kind of hard to understand as you more or less agree that CPA has an advantage and then seem to refute that same fact. Could you clarify that a bit, please? I may just be missing something.

 

I think what people are saying is that you can't compare CPA (large pool) to another Single A Public with a large pool because virtually none exist. They may have existed in Memphis at one time, and the comparison was clear: the teams COULD compete. Of course, this is the rational conclusion as you are comparing two small schools with a large pool to choose from. Their selection criteria may be different, but the result isn't. When you can pick and choose your players from a large pool, you have an advantage over a school that must accept players randomly selected from any sized pool i.e. a small rural school.

[WaggleRT]

I understand that CPA must compete with MBA, Father Ryan, Lipscomb, and Brentwood Acadamy but we are talking about the ability...whether or not it is done...to select athletes from all over a large city and have them come to school. Now, We won't make excuses if we happen to get beat, but we do recognize the opportunity this school has over a public school located in a small Community. We are bringing plenty of crowd support. 3 bus loads of students are coming. Alos, many members of the Community are coming to support the basketball team. Whether in sports or in academics...we celebrate our students accomplishments. Good Luck to all the teams in the tournament. CPA, we look forward to a very competitive game. We are prepared...but we must execute the game plan. We will see you and your fans tomorrow at 10:30 central time.

[youshouldstay25]

i don't disagree that CPA at least has a potential (albeit slight) advantage over many of the 1A public schools. the point i was making is that you cannot quantify that advantage and for that matter you can't even be sure that it actually exists in practice, not just in theory. there is really no way to compare these different types of schools in that manner...

[XtremeLoco]

I understand that CPA must compete with MBA, Father Ryan, Lipscomb, and Brentwood Acadamy but we are talking about the ability...whether or not it is done...to select athletes from all over a large city and have them come to school. Now, We won't make excuses if we happen to get beat, but we do recognize the opportunity this school has over a public school located in a small Community. We are bringing plenty of crowd support. 3 bus loads of students are coming. Alos, many members of the Community are coming to support the basketball team. Whether in sports or in academics...we celebrate our students accomplishments. Good Luck to all the teams in the tournament. CPA, we look forward to a very competitive game. We are prepared...but we must execute the game plan. We will see you and your fans tomorrow at 10:30 central time.

Good post.

[math man]

Now, We won't make excuses if we happen to get beat, but we do recognize the opportunity this school has over a public school located in a small Community. We are bringing plenty of crowd support. 3 bus loads of students are coming. Alos, many members of the Community are coming to support the basketball team. Whether in sports or in academics...we celebrate our students accomplishments.

 

That is possibly the most well said response to any of the positions, yet. Bravo!

 

i don't disagree that CPA at least has a potential (albeit slight) advantage over many of the 1A public schools. the point i was making is that you cannot quantify that advantage and for that matter you can't even be sure that it actually exists in practice, not just in theory.

 

Good sounding counterpoint, but it's illogical. It's not stupid or dumb! Just the logic is flawed, and here's why I say that. If you, on one hand, say you can't come to a logical quantification of the advantage i.e. it can't be measured regardless of quantity, you can't, on the other hand, say the advantage is non-existent or small. If you can't measure it, you can't comment on the quantity.

 

Now, can I quantify it? Of course not. It's a trend. BUT, proving the trend is easy. Go back to my random selection versus exclusionary selection. The trend is that a selected group based on skill sets will normally outperform a randomly chosen group. Always? No. Will the deviation in performance fluctuate. Of course. But the TREND is that the selected group will normally have the advantage, and that's the argument here.

 

I don't think that the argument is that public schools can't compete. Clearly, some can on any given year. The trend, however, is that private schools will maintain an advantage, and disputing the trend defies logic and facts in evidence.

 

 

there is really no way to compare these different types of schools in that manner . . .

 

But you CAN compare the performance of Single A schools both public and private. Limiting things just to baseball, over the last 5 years, how have private schools done against public schools in athletics in Single A?

[youshouldstay25]

"Look at it this way. Take a random number of 5000 students ANYWHERE out of Tennessee. Select one group of 150 COMPLETELY random students and make a school. Take the remainder and sort them for high grades. Then sort them for economic class. Take 150 out of the top 1000 (only 15%) and make a school. Who would you say has the better chance of being successful in ANY endeavor scholastic or athletic? That's the crux of the argument."

 

 

ok ... i can't comment on the quantity ... you are basing your trend argument on a random example which you proposed to simulate single A high schools... those were not facts. you also said the 150 students at the private school were selected by grades and other criteria. your trend (which i would have let slide as a decent example of your point if you had not tried to use it to prove my argument illogical) made it sound as though there was one private school which got THE TOP 150 students out of the 5000. if that was the way it worked then your trend would be deadly efficient at ending this argument. however in greater nashville there are probably hundreds of private schools to choose from. some of these, like CPA, do not select their students primarily on academic records and economic class, but on church membership, reasons for wanting to attend a christian school, etc. mba, for example, admits students to become gentlemen, scholars, and athletes. they are the type of school that you provided a stereotype for in your trend example. they are also dII. at CPA, for one, there is a very wide range of intellectual, athletic, and many other types of gifts and talents. no offense to you, but your example is completely wrong when it comes to small schools like CPA whose mottos are not "gentleman, scholar, athlete."

[youshouldstay25]

and for the baseball thing... look back at girl's volleyball in A-AA over the past 5 years... in 5 championship games, it has been 8 public, 2 private... all 5 champs were public

[XtremeLoco]

There are Volleyball teams in Tennessee? LOL Heck if i knew that.

[youshouldstay25]

haha yeah i could care less... i think talking about a single sport actually is meaningless in the debate but i had to counter the baseball argument

[blik]

This whole argument is stupid. The worst recruitng schools in the history of the TSSAA, besides Brentwood Academy have been public schools. In the late 70's and 80's, Melrose High School was what would now be considered a magnet school. They offered some class that no other school in Memphis offered, so anybody could go there. Lo and behold, all the good basketball players went there. I'm sure they went there for the class and there was no recruiting involved. look up their success during that time. In the mid 1980's, Austin East had the same deal in Knoxville. look at their state championships. Now, the most overlooked and ridiculous thing in all of high school sports is open enrollment in Memphis. There are actually newspaper articles (fairly recently) which comment on where a 8th grade phenom will be going to high school. He had "narrowed his choices" down to several historically successful basketball schools. Any 8th grade kid in memphis can go to any school he wants. It is blatant recruiting. Dyer County has been busted for recruiting. Obion County made a living off of it in the 80's.

 

Even if there is some advantage for a private school, that advantage is slight, at best. The competition in Nashville is strong, and it tends to dilute the talent. Imagine if all the basketball players at CPA and FRA were at one school instead of two. In a rural area, if you have akid who is talented, he goes to high school there - no questions. However, in Nashville, that kid can go anywhere. In addition, DI schools like CPA and FRA are at a decided disadvantage for such kids becasue of the DII programs like BA and MBA who do recruit and can give scholarships. By the way, in case you were wondering, there aren't a lot of athletes who are banging on the door to pay $10,000 each year to go to FRA.

 

The entire public/private debate is because a couple of football programs got tired of getting beat by Brentwood Academy several years ago. It was never directed at basketball, and I suspect most people who started this whole thing don't really care about basketball.