rollredroll

My thoughts on a potential matchup: it will never occur in the present environment. It would still be unlikely in a true split environment; i.e., a Division I (all public) and a Division II (all private), but more feasible then than it would be now. Assuming that we are in a true split environment, I say its I-5A versus II-3A (assuming the classifications stay the same). I oppose a playoff format, especially of 8-teams, and this is why. Division I-1A and I-2A (out): schools in these classes should not get a chance to play in such a public vs. private winner-take-all environment. Anyone who reads the Public-Private Debate knows that it is many of the players/fans/coaches from schools in these two classes that are most outspoken for a true split. The major complaint of these schools is an unfair playing field. Without opining on the merits, or lack thereof, of such statements, say they are valid. Fine. You forfeit your right to compete for an overall title. These schools cannot avoid the private schools for a Division I State title but then have their champion compete in a format with private schools that decides an overall state champion. Division I-3A and Division II-1A (out): The argument for excluding these schools is not as strong, other than for this: DI-3A, and one school in particular, has been accused, fair or not, of being a hiding ground for slightly lower-enrollment schools (by classification) who want to avoid playing privates in the regular season, so they move up. So, they are gone. As for DII-1A, all I have to say is look at their schedules. These teams basically beat up on one another and have relatively little success when playing up in Division II or out-of-division or out-of-state teams. That precludes them as well. So, we are left with DI-4A and 5A, and DII-2A and 3A. I am sure this next statement will be a lightning rod for controversy, but here it goes: a four-team playoff for these schools would be generally stacked against the privates. Just look at this year. For a minute, say that Brentwood Academy is the best in DII-3A. Put them in a mythical matchup with a Gallatin or Germantown or JCM (DI-5A schools) and you may have a hard time picking a winner. Put them up against a Maryville (DI-4A) and you still may have trouble picking a winner. Now put BGA, the class of DII-AA, up against any of the aforementioned DI schools and you likely would pick the DI schools in every such matchup (I would; no disrespect intended for BGA fans though). BGA has a very good team, and are by no means a pushover, but they are not as good as those Division I schools. That may not be totally fair, this year or every year, but I will contend that the gap between the best DII-3A team and the best DI-4A and 5A teams is much smaller than the gap between the best DII-2A team and the best DI-4A and 5A teams. So, DI-4A is eliminated from consideration (which probably is not fair to a Maryville, who could makes claims of being the best of all schools in the state), as is DII-2A. So we are left with DI-5A and DII-3A, which is the way it should be. It is the DI-5A schools which generally say to heck with the public/private debate and play any and all comers. Schools like Dobyns-Bennett, Gallatin, Lincoln County, Oakland, and a few others who schedule the DII schools during the regular season should be the schools eligible to compete for such an overall title before the non-5A Division I schools which generally avoid the DII schools are eligible. And, do I think this matchup should occur? Absolutely! While the smaller private schools are head and shoulders better than their small public school brethren, there is much more parity between the big public schools and the big private schools, and I think you would see a very competitive series. I guess this thread will be moving soon. [Edited by rollredroll on 11-14-02 3:02P]

One game at a time, FlyBy! MUS is playing well, and always plays MBA tough. It will take a big effort out of the Big Red.

More interesting tidbits from MBA's history: Same 'ol Vandy?: I'm not sure how Vanderbilt's varsity fared in 1927, but the Commodore freshmen must not have been that good. MBA beat them 25-0 (that was shutout #17 of the aforementioned 23-game shutout stretch). If you think Ezell runs up the score: in 1925, MBA beat Castle Heights Military Academy 103-0, Paducah Tilghman 91-0, Portland 87-0, and Knoxville High 89-0. I understand recruits could be bought for one cent or a half-pint of moonshine in those days. If you didn't take that last comment as a joke: if you think MBA was recruiting back in those days, perhaps its 5-0 loss - to Sewanee Grammar School in 1903 - may change your mind. [Edited by rollredroll on 11-13-02 12:07A]

I'll throw out some numbers for MBA. While I readily admit that a few other programs out there have more impressive numbers on the field (including but not limited to our beloved rival Brentwood Academy, as well as Dobyns-Bennett, which I believe holds the most wins in Tennessee), there is a rather long tradition at MBA. Here are some stats: Program began playing in 1899; record through 2001 season was 586-292-45 (roughly; some old data may not be reliable) Best stretch has been since 1982 (the last losing season), with the teams going a collective 157-42 (.789) through 2001 and garnering two USA Today national rankings. Most dominant three-year stretch was in "the day of leather helmets and no facemasks": 1925-1927. Team went 23-0, outscoring opponents by a score of 1,191-0 (average game score of 52-0). Most famous football alum: Bill Wade. Top pick in 1952 draft, played 13 years with the Rams and Bears. 18,000+ passing yards, 124 TDs, 2 Pro Bowls, led Bears to its first NFL title in 1963. [Edited by rollredroll on 11-13-02 12:09A]

Dan, could you tell me the entire 2003 schedule as you know it? Southeastbell, MBA is Montgomery Bell Academy in Nashville.

sportsfan0603, you should learn a little humility. It wasn't too long ago that the team you support was on the wrong end of a 76-0 game in a year in which that team might not have won a game versus a Super 7 JV team. Ezell is great now, but remember the lean years, and don't forget that they will return again - they do for everyone at some point. Look at the relative troubles that BA had after two Top 5 national rankings in 1995 and 1996. Look at the relative troubles that MBA has had after two Top 25 national rankings in 1999 and 2000. Granted, those schools still had decent seasons in the post-ranking years, but superiority can be fleeting, even for programs with a long history of winning. As for who the "Super 7" teams play (I don't know where or when the term "Super" was coined, but I'd guess it was likely done by the media, not by the member teams), show me a region in the state where the teams have played a tougher non-region schedule over the years. While Riverdale and Maryville et al. may not show up, look at the programs which have, in-state and out-of-state: Oakland in '99 (defending 5A champ at the time; hardly made it past midfield in a 21-0 loss to visiting MBA), Lincoln County (one of a handful of TN schools with former USA Today rankings under their belt and owner of the only win over Riverdale this year; couldn't handle McCallie the past two years or MBA the two years before that), Dobyns-Bennett (traditional TN 5A power), St. Xavier in Ohio (finished in the USA Today Top 25 last year), Jacksonville Bolles in Florida (former national Top 25 team as well; held a #1 rating at one time), and the list goes on. You can't play 'em all, but the DII-AAA teams welcome any and all comers - Maryville, Riverdale, whoever. I'm sure those schools aren't afraid, either - those are good programs who have a long tradition of winning (not just two years). sportsfan0603, I am impressed with EHCS over the past two years, and I think they would have been more than competitive in DII-AAA this year and last, despite what others may say. But your program has a long way to go before it's ready to compete week-in, week-out with schools with not only multiple decades of football history but also multiple decades of quality wins over the largest and top programs in and out of the state. Good luck to your Eagles. Maybe we'll see you down the road when the private DI schools are banished to DII.

Otis, would you please elaborate on the following: "They [Ryan] can't or don't RECRUIT on the same level as their current opponents." Is that all opponents, or just a few? If so, would you name some schools and examples? Also, why has Ryan changed their ways, so to speak? What area/facet of the school did the administrators hope to improve by no longer "recruiting"? Has it seen the desired improvement? Just asking; not trying to offend or imply anything. [Edited by rollredroll on 11-6-02 11:24A]

I don't think it's something worth bashing BA for, but it would be interesting to hear Coach Flatt's rationale. The same intent (not playing the one and two-deep players) could have been accomplished with those guys in full gear. I'm not offended by it as a neutral fan. It would be nice to get the Ryan players' and fans' input, though. [Edited by rollredroll on 11-2-02 12:49A]

MBA wins 35-7. Game was tied at 7 at the half, but Big Red explodes in the second half. McCallie had seven turnovers - 5 INTs and 2 fumbles. Those miscues definitely hurt them, but the Big Red had a couple of fumbles inside the McCallie 5 (three turnovers total), so the TOs pretty much offset each other. Michael Fisher (15-21, 300+ yards) and Michael Koban (140 yards rushing) had great nights for MBA. Should be an interesting playoff in DII-AAA. Big edge to BA at this point, but who knows - it's been a wacky season.

Can someone explain a couple of things for me? In DII-AAA, teams have four "region" games. Why aren't there six region games? On a related note, MBA is the only team that plays all Super 7 opponents; all others miss at least one Super 7 member, and some two (CBHS missed BA and McCallie this year - how lucky is that?). It seems that with seven teams, we should all play each other. What also puzzles me is how the region is defined. For example, BA (10 miles away) was not considered a regional opponent for MBA but CBHS (200 miles away) was. Does that make any sense? Please, TSSAA, let us go back to the old classification system!

Ryan won it all in the first year of the Super 7 (1997) with an undefeated team, beating MBA 10-7 in the finals. They also won a AAA title in 1974.

...if you have ever become so worked up over how teams are ranked in the CoachT.com Fan Poll or any of the prep polls (Earl Nall, Sonny Moore, etc.). ...if you have ever wondered if the people who complain about these polls actually think that playoff seeds or state championships are granted based on the results of such polls.

blount, there also is a St. X in Kentucky (Louisville). They have a good program as well.

I agree, too, Bighurt. jlater's comments were out of line. I forgot to mention that in my post. My response was similar to a personal foul call - the official sees only the second foul - the retaliation - and flags that offense, totally missing the first one.

See "Some thoughts on the Topic" on page 4 of this board. CoachT speaks there (and quite well and diplomatically). [Edited by rollredroll on 10-18-02 1:53P]

Thanks, itzme. Despite my loyalty, and the rivalry between MBA and BA, I do think BA deserves to be defended in this situation. BA has shown enough consistency (and many times supremacy) over the years to be cut a little slack for what has happened during the past few years.

I don't have a dog in this BA/McCallie hunt, but I'll throw in my two cents. McCallie has all the right in the world to crow now: they won the game this year. But while the here and now is what will determine who wins it all this year, to imply the past doesn't matter is bunk. Coyote8, some of your fellow McCallie fans are just as guilty of pulling out "the history card". No sooner did they win the game versus BA this year that they started talking about "3 in a row and 4 of the last 5". You even see it on this thread. One would have seen similar comments the week of the Baylor-McCallie game. Look at that thread and see how the recent history of that series was discussed. Flame me if you want, but being humble will never get you in trouble. McCallie will be bad again; that's not a knock on McCallie, it's just that all programs go through cycles of goodness and badness, so don't be surprised how compelled you will be to bring up the history card when teams you used to beat start beating up on you. Hey, I admit it, I pull the history card at times, too. I do it not so much to live in the past but more so as retroactive crowing. I didn't shove a prior year win by my team down an opponent's throat, but now that the same opponent is crowing about a current win, I'm taking my liberties a little late. Childish, maybe, but it makes us feel better at times. You will know the feeling some day, trust me. I think anyone out there who is a Tennessee Vols fan knows that the use of a history card is a double standard when talking about the two big rivals, Florida and Alabama. The usual rally call from a Tennessee fan when Florida wins a regular season game is "Who leads the series? Who has more national championships?". However, when the Tide fans start bragging about all their national championships and their 7-game lead in the Tennessee series, Vol fans' defense is, "That's all ancient history. We've beaten you seven times in a row".

Not sure if it's a mistake on my digital cable menu or not, but CSS is showing a recast on Friday at 7:30 of Riverdale-Oakland.

I'm not sure if Baylor has a national title or not. If the poster says the school does have one, I believe it. It's a "mythical" title, but I'll take a mythical title any day. I know some public school advocates will tell you that Hannah didn't live in Tennessee (at least that's my understanding), but hey, Baylor and McCallie are boarding schools and can take out-of-state students. Without going off on too much of a tangent, that's what I love about us Super 7 fans - schools like McCallie and Baylor have the advantage over the other five schools of taking out of state students due to the boarding factor, but none of us really care, or even see it as that much of an advanatge (I don't see it as an advantage). We just say, "line-em up and let's play". As much as I'm an MBA fan, and wildly enjoyed its dominance in 1999 and 2000 (not to mention a non-dominant state title in 1998 versus a previously undefeated BA team), I will readily acknowledge that BA is probably the program in the Super 7, if not the whole state, despite no DII titles. While I think BA should have been competing in AAA during the three-class system era, the school certainly showed its power in the two years it spent in 5A before the infamous split. Love BA or hate 'em, they still strike fear in everyone more than any program, even if schools like MBA or McCallie have pretty much owned them over the last few years. I think we fans need to revisit the fact that superiority is fleeting and be careful how much we toot our horns. Ask any of us MBA fans how we feel now. We were clearly the best program in Tennessee in 1999 (public school debaters welcome, but I watched all Blue Cross Bowl games that year and there was no comparison to MBA) and one of the best (along with Red Bank) in 2000, but now we're struggling to stay out of the cellar. McCallie is great now - I thought they were one of the two best in all classes last year (with perhaps Maryville an equal) and very strong this year, BA is showing a return to greatness, even with two losses this year due to inexplicable lapses in the kicking game, and Baylor looks to be relatively strong, even with a hard-fought loss to McCallie last weekend. I guess my point is - enjoy it while it lasts. One or two-year wonders are great, but the programs who have shown consistency over the years will likely be there at the top in the long run. As for the thread subject - I'll take BA, although Baylor is certainly capabale. BA 24, Baylor 14. [Edited by rollredroll on 10-17-02 11:02P]

FYI: St. X plays all of its season games in Kentucky. They were not ranked in the USA Today. There are other official national rankings. The St. X in question is an Ohio-based team. From the Cincinnati Enquirer: 8/24/2002 3:00 PM Sycamore High School W 10-7 8/31/2002 7:30 PM @BRENTWOOD ACADEMY HIGH W 21-20 9/6/2002 7:30 PM COLUMBUS ST FRANCIS DE SALES L 0-21 9/13/2002 7:30 PM INDIANAPOLIS CATHEDRAL W 25-6 9/21/2002 7:30 PM @Moeller High School** W 35-21 9/27/2002 7:30 PM @Elder High School** L 17-21 10/4/2002 7:30 PM @La Salle High School** W 35-7 10/12/2002 7:30 PM @BETHLEHEM CATHOLIC HIGH L 21-31 10/19/2002 7:30 PM CLEVELAND ST IGNATIUS Pregame 10/25/2002 7:30 PM Hamilton High School Pregame ** denotes conference game

I could see this one coming. I thought MBA would put up a tougher challenge, but am not surpirsed at the outcome. Congrats, BA - you will represent Middle Tennessee well in the DII-AAA playoffs. Hopefully MBA will get a chance to make an appearance! [Edited by rollredroll on 10-11-02 11:11P]

I appreciated the points you made in your previous post, as to why stay together. Well said. I do wish that you would see that taking shots at other private schools by innuendo is not productive, and is no better than the public school guys taking blind shots at the private DI schools. You're better than that, RollRed!! Fair enough. I will watch what I say.

That one had me confused as well. I think he meant to replace "single-A" with "five-A".

Well said. I think those public school supporters who unmercifully lump every private school together into the same category would be surprised to realize that those private schools who do play by the rules, who put academics way ahead of winning fake gold balls, and who care more about how their students represent their schools as ladies and gentlemen than as linebackers and forwards and pitchers look down upon those private schools who do cheat and let in loads of academically-marginal students with similar disdain that public school supporters look down on said private schools.

Why? Here are two reasons (among many) for which I want all schools together: (1) I don't like the DII playoff format where two postseason wins in football may get a school a state title. Along these lines, I equally dislike the jabs by the public school supporters about how "cheap" DII titles are. Sure they're cheap, but we didn't ask for the format we were given. (2) I miss the rivalries the school I support used to have with schools like Hillsboro and Overton. The kids at those schools were at times our teammates in summer league baseball, our double date buddies, our next door neighbors, etc. The opportunities to knock heads with those guys were cherished. Let me know if you want more.