Manzikert

This is off the subject of this thread, but I feel the need to respond to the statement about Ricky Bowers (the "athlete, athlete, athlete" quote) above. The statement is, in my opinion, totally inaccurate and really unfair to Ricky and to MBA. A couple of facts should make my point. Ricky's teams sent at least 6 players to the Ivy League during his time at MBA. The tri captains of his best team (1999) ALL went to Yale. All three played football for four years, all three graduated in four years. A large number of Ricky's other players went to Ivy League and other top tier schools but didn't play football. At least two other players during Ricky's time, Hunter Hillenmeyer and Will Bartholomew were admitted to Princeton, but turned it down to play for Vanderbilt and Tennessee, respectively. Both graduated in four years after solid football careers. Ingle Martin was a good enough student to have been heavily recruited by Penn when he transferred from Florida. The average SAT score of the offensive line of Ricky's first state championship football team in 1998 was 1350. As another way to think about the question, let's look at the players who scored touchdowns in the Clinic Bowl for the three consecutive state championship teams Ricky had in 1998,1999 and 2000. That would seem to be a decent proxy for who his stud skill players (the ones you'd lower requirements for if MemorialMagic's statement had any truth in it) were. Where did those guys go to college? I saw all three games, but its been a while and my memory isn't perfect, but I think I can get close--- How's this list---Yale,UNC, Vanderbilt, Florida, Yale, Davidson, Virginia,Vanderbilt, Vanderbilt and Vanderbilt. Not a bunch of schools for dummies. Achieving success doesn't necessarily mean somebody cut corners. Ricky ran the program at MBA in the very best traditions of the school and its mission. To say otherwise simply reflects ignorance of the facts.

Not a big deal, but Ensworth beat Pioneer Christian, the Tennessean had it backwards. I was at the game. Good game, Tavarres Jefferson had 39 points. As far as BA goes, I doubt Ensworth has a good answer for their size. I'd need 12 or 14 points to bet on the Tigers. Better odds than last year, though.

Redtwin--Good post. Well said.

I hear you, but I think you misunderstood my point about tuition. I understand where my tax dollars go, and I'm glad (relatively speaking) to have them go to support public schools. A good public education system is critical to the future of all of our communities. My point was narrower and simpler--- if a parent looks at two possible schools for his or her child, and one is free and the other one costs, then even if they've got the money, the free school is economically preferable, if price is the main decision factor-- and it is for lots of folks (around Nashville, where I live) who, for example send their kids to Ravenwood, Brentwood , Independence or Franklin when they could clearly afford the tuition at BGA, Ensworth, Ryan or MBA. So that cuts the available market for a private school by some amount. More significant , there are lots of folks who don't have the money for the tuition-- if you're a D1 private, they're out because you can't give need based aid. Even if you're a D2 private, nobody has unlimited money for financial aid. Its a matter of public record that MBA's financial aid budget is around $750K. THe tuition is almost $20K. That would be 37 full rides, or roughly 6 per grade (MBA is 7-12). They don't use it that way, nobody does, it gets spread a lot wider-- as I said in an earlier post, the average award is about 60% of tution--- so at MBA, a family receiving the average award is shelling out $8k in after tax dollars to cover the difference between the aid package and full tuition. Some folks can do that, more can't, and none of that larger group can attend MBA on the average award. SOme kids get very close to full rides-- everybody pays something--- but if somebody gets a full ride, somebody else pays more-- that's where the average comes from. My point was to try to counter this "draw from 9 counties" argument by pointing out that , however many counties they draw from, its way less than all the kids in those counties that are real candidates. You could counter, "well yeah, but they've got room if they just go for jocks"-- which would make a difference--- but I can tell you, (you don't have to believe me, but I'm right as a matter of fact here) that's not what they do--- MBA, for example, has had debaters, cellists, actors, tennis players, and just plain old good students on aid--- sometimes more than average, who contribute diddley to their football team. Other places of which I have 1st hand knowledge are similar. (I don't have 1st hand knowledge of BA's practices between 1980 and 1996-- which , whatever they were, are the real reason there are 100 threads on the "public-private debate board)) Now--- where they do differ is that they get a very big percentage of kids out for football in the 7th , 8th & 9th grades and they have very good coaches--- (all of whom are also classroom teachers, and good ones, if that matters to you)--- they get kids into the weight room, they have very good facilities--- I'm not saying money doesn't help, just saying that there isn't anybody, including Bill Gates who isn't going to say that free tuition is less than not free tuition--- and that the percentage of kids really available to a private school in a given geography is therefore a good bit less than the number of kids to a public school across the street. And the booster club thing is pretty much a red herring--- nobody around here has a booster club that does enough to make major difference in a school's win-loss record--- the money that comes from a booster club is never a material piece of even the athletic budget, let alone the school's whole budget. And, if you look around the country , the really big booster clubs are public schools--- Valdosta, GA, Hoover, AL, Jenks, OK, Westlake Village, TX-- places like that--- great big schools 3,000 kids plus, with strong traditions and community support--- they've got the numbers to dwarf anything any private school can come up with from an athletic booster club. Now-- reading back over this post, it occurs to me that a lot of what I've said isn't really responsive to the thing that's bugging you , which is small rural 1A publics and whether they can compete with small D1 (non aid granting) 1A privates. My points about the "wider geography advantage" being less than it seems are applicable, & even stronger for non aid giving privates--- other sorts of advantages, I don't know, and the stuff about MBA etc is border line applicable at best---- but I think that the multiplier can be made to fix the problem, if there is one-- you could, for example, just multiply all the privates out of 1A--- or out of 1A & 2A both---- let the smallest privates play in 3A, and all the larger private play in 4A & 5A. (You'd have to admit that you'd like to see Maryville have to play McCallie or maybe BA in the playoffs and maybe shut them up for once-- just kidding RebelRon). In the years before the split I think the only privates who won the largest classification in football were Baylor in '73, Ryan in '74 and BA in "95 & '96. MBA had some very good teams that lost some great games to Gallatin. It was a healthy atomosphere and good for the kids to play each other. BA ticked everybody off by playing in lower classes for years-- as I said in my earlier post, a merit system of some kind could be devised that would prevent that sort of thing. And those '95 & '96 teams that provoked the split (Riverdale's principal watching Murfreesboro native Mikki Allen score a TD and saying , in front of lots of witnesses,"we're not going to let them taking OUR KIDS (emphasis mine-- still wondering who sold him those kids) and beat us with them") were outliers even by BA standards--- they were just amazing once in a long while aggregations of talent. Anyway--- think multiplier & merit system and "can't we all just get along"-- it'll be better for the kids and for the community, I promise.

I've stayed out of this and am making this post with some trepidation. However I do feel constrained to point out, in as calm, unemotional, Christian, prayerful, friendly, reasonable way as I can muster, that public schools have some really big advantages over private schools that have been addressed, if at all, pretty tangentially on this thread. Start with with three very large elephants over in the corner-- specifically, public schools are FREE-- (no tuitiion), have no admission requirements (although there are obviously eligibility requirements for sports), and have a guaranteed student body every year. Private schools can, its true, draw from a wider geography-- but well less than 100% of the kids in that geography are true potential students whether due to finances, eligibility requirements, transportation issues or whatever. Second, they've got to persuade people to send their kids to a school where they have to pay (even in D2 where need based financial aid is permitted, the average award is 60% of tuition, so at a school with tuition of $10K a family would pay $4K-- and, in my experience, the schools I'm familiar with require everybody to pay something---- the closest thing to a full ride I've heard of is MBA's faculty child tution remission program, which sets tution for faculty kids at $100 the last I heard.-- still, more than free)And MBA is the only school with an endowment big enough to do something like that. Every other kid at any of the schools I know about is paying way more than that.. At D1 privates, no financial aid is allowed, so the folks MPHS87 is worried about may HAVE to draw from a bigger area in order to find kids to cover their budget-- and their search might well have more to do with whose got a wallet than who can run a 4.7 forty. Because they have to get the kids to pay tution to cover their budget-- they can go bankrupt and go out of business-- another thing public schools don't have to worry about-- and thus an advantage. Again, in my experience, the financial aid budget is tight, even at a place like MBA with a big endowment, and its used primarily to increase diversity. That sometimes also brings in a talented athlete, but I can guarantee you that there are lots & lots of kids at D2 schools, receiving need based financial aid, who either don't play sports at all, or who are just solid citizens on a team, not stars at all. There are currently two kids from MBA (and I think from D2)playing in the NFL-- Hunter Hillenmeyer and Ingle Martin--- both came to MBA as 7th graders from long established, private feeder schools, (Harding and Oak Hill respectively) my guess is that neither received financial aid (I know for a fact that Hunter didn't) Both were good students-- Hunter was extraordinary-- made 1580 on the SATs, and a 3.9 at Vanderbilt, while graduating in 4 years and making All SEC. That's way too narrow of a sample to prove anything, but those are clearly two of the biggest "difference making " athletes that have come along in recent years, and none, I repeat none of the advantages that keep getting cited for private schools apply in either case. You might say that MBA just got really lucky to get a couple of kids like that-- sort of like the Maplewood teams in the mid 70's that had both Preston Brown and EJ Junior-- it happens--- just not very often-- enjoy it while you can--- and even with no injuries this year, MBA's team would have been much less impressive than those late 90's teams that Hunter and Ingle played on.Now--- without a guaranteed student body, and needing tution dollars to pay teachers and the heating bill, private schools do have to market themselves---- but marketing-- ie-- letting folks know you exist,by writing letters or taking out ads telling them about your program, holding open houses etc, is not, despite some of the comments I've seen on caochT, the same thing as recuiting--- which implies some degree of undue influence (repeated calls, after somebody says they're not interested, under the table inducements etc) In my experience, very little if any of that goes on-- private schools market, because they have to, to stay in business, but sports is only a part , and not the biggest part, of what they market, or what they're seeking. That's my experience, in any case, and I do have a fair amount of familarity with a number of D2 schools. All this said--- and this post has gotten way too long--- whatever disparity there is seems to me to be taken care of with the multiplier. That's how a number of other states handle it (Alabama for example) and it seems to work. Indeed , in some states very much like Tennessee, the big public schools are clearly better than the private schools, and really sort of contemptuous of them. If you suggested to somebody from Independence High in Charlotte , or even from Myers Park, that they ought to be worried about playing Charlotte Latin or Charlotte Country Day, they'd laugh at you. Similarly, in the DC area, if you told somebody from Senaca Valley to fear Sidwell Friends (Chelsea Clinton's alma mater) he'd fall over laughing. Why Tennessee is different, I don't know-- but I do think its healthy for all schools to play each other-- and I think that the right multiplier, consistently applied-- maybe supplemented by a merit system that would've said to BA back in the 80's "we don't care that you've only got 50 senior boys, 6 of them got D1 scholarships and you're kicking the fool out everybody in 1A & 2A, so you're now 5A, and don't ###### about it" would address the problem pretty well. Just my opinion, I could be wrong-- and I'll say a prayer for all of God's children tonight, along with a prayer to help me fight the sin of pride and thinking that I'm always right. God Bless.

Not true. He's never attended Ensworth. Played a heck of game against Ensworth in the HVAC Finals when he was an 8th grader. CPA won. He's a very good player.

Need based financial aid, which is perfectly legal. 10-25%of the kids at most independent schools receive some financial aid. Lots of the kids receiving aid aren't athletes. Most of them aren't stars. The amount of the family's need is required to be determined by an outside third party based on a pre determined formula that's the same for all kids, all schools. THe average financial aid award is roughly 60% of tuition, so that at a school with tuition of $10,000, the family pays $4,000. THis compare to the price of public schools, which is FREE-- I'm not a math genius, but free looks better than $4k, if price is all you look at. The principal reason schools give financial aid is to increase the diversity of their student body. At most schools that I know about, every family is required to pay something. The need formula is pretty tight, and many families make considerable sacrifices to send their kids to independent schools, for lots of reasons, most of which have nothing to do with sports. That's their choice--- doesn't have to be yours--- and I don't think choosing one way or the other makes somebody a better or worse person. Whining and making excuses, on the other hand, may not make you a bad person, but its a poor example and Bear Bryant wouldn't have approved.

Does anybody know how the other games played today turned out? And what the schedule is for tomorrow?

A quality win for the Ensworth girls. 70-59 over the 3 time defending Georgia AA state champions, losers of only 20 games since 2000. The Tigers were led by Emily Perkins with 26 and Anna Bowers with 24.

Pete Page -Ryan, early 70's Kurt Page--Ryan-late 70's Ricky Bowers -MBA- late 70's, early 80's David Pack--MBA-Late 70's, early 80's Tom Moore-- MBA-Late 70's, eraly 80's

Tavarres Jefferson, Ensworth RB, last night 6 carries, 257 yards, 4 TDs

"BA" is in the division with Ensworth, McCallie etc

I saw the game. Pretty well played by both teams. There were points in the game where each team could have quit, but neither one did. GC was bigger and more experienced. They came out in a straight, stove pipe I with 2 tight ends and ran it down Ensworth's throat for TDs on their 1st two possessions to lead 12-0. Ensworth rallied, slowed them down a little and started opening holes for Tavarres Jefferson (who finished with 245 yds on 25 carries). They scored 21 points in the 2d quarter, two Jefferson runs and a 40 yd Ballard to Pope pass. Ensworth led 21-20 at the half. 3d quarter was even but sloppy. Toward the end of the quarter GC started on a 15 play, 64 yd drive that took 7 minutes off the clock. Very methodical. Nothing outside the tackles, and their backs , especially Edgemon, #8, made yards after contact almost every time. They converted 3 3d downs and a 4th down on the drive, scored, made 2 to go up 28-21. Ensworth drove down to the GC 11 with 2 minutes to go, mostly on runs by Jefferson. Bad snap in the shotgun lost 10 yards, turned it over on downs and that was the game. Good game. THe better team won, but give the Ensworth kids, especially the linemen, another year in the weight room and maybe a different result. We'll see.

I think of a power I as a FB and TB in a line behind the QB, with the 4th back beside the FB. This was 3 backs in a straight line behind the QB-- I've always heard it called a "stove pipe I" (the backs sort of look like a stove pipe)-- but now that you mention it, that is the way Maryland lined up when Tom Nugent first introduced the I around 1960--- so I guess its the Maryland I too.

I was there, and it was neither. Giles County was a lot bit bigger up front and came out with two tight ends and 3 backs in a "stove pipe I" behind the QB. They ran it down Ensworth's throat and scored on their 1st two possessions to go up 12-0. Ensworth could've folded at that point but didn't. They started opening holes for Tavarres Jefferson (who had 245 yds on 25 carries for the night) and scored 3 time in the second quarter on 2 Jefferson runs and a nice pass from Ballard to Pope. They started stunting to gaps and pursuing better on defense and slowed GC down a little. Ensworth led at the half 21-20. The 3d quarter was even, both teams made mistakes to stop drives. GC got the ball near the end of the 3d quarter and went 64 yds in 15 plays, converted 3 3d downs and 4th down. Took 7 minutes to score, get a 2 point conversion and go up 28-21. Ensworth drove back down the field and got to the GC 11 with 2 min to go, but lost 10 on a bad snap in the shotgun, gave it up on downs and that was the game It was a good game, well played by both teams. GC has some good backs, esp #8, (Edgemon, I think). He made yards after contact on just about every carry. Both teams wanted it, niether quit and both did a lot of good things. I also liked GC's stadium, great atmosphere. GC just did more good things and they deserved to win. Just a bit of free advice to ehstigas08 from somebody who's seen and played in a lot more football games than you have--- never blame the refs-- calls even out-- they did last night and they almost always do. Y'all lost because Giles County drove the ball for the winning TD and converted 3 3d downs and 4th down along the way. If you'd knocked #8 backwards instead of him falling forward for 2 or 3 extra yards every time he carried the ball, different result. Of course, as you found out 1st hand, he's a tough kid and good back so that's not easy to do. That's why its a great game-- it tests YOU-- and your teammates. Y'all did well and should be proud of your performance. You can also improve on it. Focus on that and don't make yourself sound like a punk crying about the refs.

Emily Perkins, Fwd, Ensworth

A wise young man--- final Ensworth 28 BGA 10. Four different players scored for the Tigers. BGA had 2 1st downs in the 2d half.

At Notre Dame, Jack Snow, in high school, I have no idea. To continue the trivia contest-- who did Huarte sign with in the pros, for a bonus of $200k, one of the first big dollar bonuses in pro football. An d for extra credit, who signed with the same team fro $400k and beat Huarte out for the QB job?

Actually, I think I'm wrong--- I think Notre Dame means "Our Lady", not "Our Mother"---- somebody from Ryan or a Latin scholar from MBA could help me out here. Let's try this--- suppose McCallie (which I'm guessing is uncfan13's school) was fortunate enough to play and defeat the only high school in the country to produce 2 Heisman Trophy winners--- Mater Dei in Los Angeles (John Huarte and Matt Leinhardt)--- a long trip and a tough game, but cut me some slack here--- anyway--- surely beating up on the Mother of God has got to be about the most sacreligious thing you could do-- but you'd be proud of it, I promise. Anyway-- odd sounding names aside, Ensworth played a good game--- next week at BGA will be a tougher test-- we'll see how they do.

I agree that the name sounds funny, but they were actually a pretty good team and its a good sized (1600 kids) K-12 school. They're playing a schedule this year that includes Atlanta private schools like Lovett and Westminster, as well as a bunch of Georgia 3A public schools (no split in Georgia). They had a couple of good running backs and Ensworth was fortunate to beat them-- a solid , well played game by both teams. And anyway, as far a sacreligious goes, if you beat Notre Dame, aren't you beating up your own mother?

Both of you make some good points-- i've got a couple of side bar observations that I think might be helpful. First, as to the question of whether the split was "about state championships in football at the highest level", I think its pertinent that, based on evidence introduced and not contradicted in the BA-TSSAA court case, the organizer of move for the split within the Board of Control was Riverdale's principal and that his efforts began right after Riverdale, having won its 1st ever state title with one of the best teams ever in Tennessee in 1994, lost the '95 Clinic Bowl to a BA team that had a couple of kids on it who lived in Murfreesboro--one of whom, Mikki Allen, later of UT, was a big star. Uncontradicted evidence in the court case was that he was heard to say late in that game "I'm sick and tired of these people taking OUR KIDS (emphasis mine) and beating us with them" BA won again in '96 with probably their best ever team and the split into DI and DII followed shortly thereafter. Was it just about 5A football state titles--- I'd agree that the answer is "No"-- and would also agree with Big Red Big Blue that BA created a lot of ill will by staying in lower classes for so long and overwhelming people (although they lost a bunch of Clinic Bowls too) for so long---- with 20-20 hindsight, it would have been better if they'd applied the "de Facto" multiplier that BRBB describes and played up to a higher class like MBA, Ryan, Baylor and the a number of other schools did. So--- just about 5A football? no-- but I think the evidence supports the view that 5A football was the "preciptating" or immediate cause, lack of a better term.---- An additional effect that I've observed of this football driven arrangement we now live with is that the quality of the kids' experience in all other sports is worse because of the split. I think the football experience is worse as well, but we can leave that out for now. But its hard to argue that track and cross country, for example weren't better when everybody competed for state titles at great big, exciting meets-- somethings gone out of them now-- diluted, not as strong. I don't know if there's a relationship present, but it is true that if you look at at least Nashville area track & field records today, the record in most events is 10 or more years old-- ie, from the pre split era-- reduce competition and performance degrades. But , of course, now more people get to say they're "state champions" so those All American goals of boosting kids' self esteem (whether warranted or not) and adults' bragging rights and egos are served well. I think its kind of sad, really. And, a fianl observation, I don't think any team in Tennessee hostory , ever, has put together a 6 or 7 year run as dominant as Maryville in recent years--- but if you look at their football web site, they look like a prety normal bunch of kids-- the sort you'd see at any school-- a couple of college prospects every year, but nobody who's likely to be an AllAmerican or anything, and no more than you could find, I'd bet, at 15 or 20 TN high schools most years--- so what's different---I'd suggest coaching, hard work, and a tradition that drives kids to set high standards for themselves--- sort of like the Marines. I'd offer a thought that those sort of factors have a lot more to do with the success enjoyed by schools like BA, MBA, MUS, McCallie etc than overwhelming talent. Out of all those great BA teams, I can only think of 2 guys who wound up getting any playing time in the NFL, Kent Austin and Bubba Miller. THe foundation of success at the HS level is to get regualr kids to give you their very best. Great coaches do that. Another example-- Hillsboro was terrible for years until Ron Aydelotte came. Did the student body change radically at the same time? I don't think so-- but what they were persuaded to do, the effort and commitment that they were persuaded to give, changed a bunch. Sorry for the long post.

Very good. LOL.

I've watched MBA athletic teams, particularly football, as an MBA supporter, for the last 35 years. I've also got some connections at Ensworth and know something about the philosophy that has guided them both as a K-8 school and now as a K-12 school. If MBA and Ensworth were to to play today, I'd wish them both well, but I'd probably root for Ensworth to win. With those preliminaries, let me say that I agree completely with everything BigRedDog says in his post. The coaching job that Ricky, and Tommy Owen before him did at MBA was extraordinary in every respect--- the model of what you'd want for your son in each era. Running up the score, "grudges" etc have never been part of the picture for Ricky and won't be in the future. Ricky had some great athletes at MBA, but as BRD says, their success was due to the fundamentals, discipline and intensity (just look at the way they pursue on defense) that all their kids got from Ricky and his staff--- Caudill, Brown, Elliott and the rest--- and they were building on a tradition dating from Tommy Owen and before. To me, the most impressive single statistic that I ever heard about the MBA football program was the fact that the offensive line of the 1998 state championship team had average SATs of over 1300. I know that Ensworth is guided by the same philosophy of excellence in everything they do-- academics, athletics, arts etc.--- and the same devotion to doing it with class. Good luck to both schools.

I agree with you about Jefferson. If you'd like to see him, go to www.ensworth.com, click on the "Media Library"tab at the top of the page and click on the video highlights of Friday's game against Rossville Christian. There's a punt run back for a TD in the 1st half , and a TD run on a sweep near the end, both of which are really impresive. Not shown is an 75 yd TD punt return that got called back. He had 135 yds on 6 carries for 2 TDs and a 65 yard punt return for a TD. He'll face some stronger opposition later in the year, but he's a very impressive, elusive back.