Every key stroke must have been made

[Indian]

As I've asked before, what happens when and if a Brentwood Academy wins the merit system's top class? There was backlash when they won 5A, why not this?

Edited March 24, 2006 by Indian

[tnsddeveloper]

As for the privates in D1 not giving scholarships...can you explain how the work-study program works. Don't some athletes get a work-study type of scholarship. Yes, I know they have to "work" to get the money, but how often do some programs take advantage of that situation. By this I mean: 1) where is the work-study completed, 2) who actually monitors the work, 3) who monitors the paperwork for the work completed, 4) is there a limit to how much students can earn through this type of financial aid?

Again, D1 privates can not offer any financial aid to any athlete for any reason. I have never heard of work study programs at a high school of any sort. The only place that I've heard of a work study program would be at the college baseball program that I played at.

 

The merit system you discussed does seem to have firm basis for success. I would like to learn more details about it though. Are there other states who already have this implemented? Once again I see nothing wrong with steady competition, but is it fair for a team like Trousdale, with 1A enrollment, to have to move up classifications because of good coaching? Once again, I am not moving away from competition, but looking more for fairness. I mean it isn't the fault of Trousdale Co. that they have been successful over years due to coaching. But they can only be successful at such a level where enrollment and numbers do begin to play a factor...don't you agree. At some point in time would Trousdale be placed in a division with Riverdale, Maryville, Hillsboro, etc. I just don't see that being fair...only due to the fact of numbers.

The rebuttal to the fairness to Trousdale would be this ... is it just good coaching that gets Trousdale to the top? And, they opted to play in 3A before and were very, very competitive ... they can easily handle that type of competition. Maybe there is some sort of competitive advantage that they have like a good network of alumni that get athletes to move into the county ... maybe even use a relatives mailing address to be able to play there. That seems to be the complaint about privates schools, magnets, and open zoners. That is what is so nice about the merit system, you play to the level of competition that you are.

 

And I seriously doubt they would hit the Riverdale, Maryville, Hillsboro echelon. They may end up playing the McGavocks of the world due to their lack of winning, but they would never have the numbers to hang with the real big boys.

 

Someone else might have some info regarding if any other states do it - I do not personally although I think maybe Rhode Island does it.

Edited March 24, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[tnsddeveloper]

As I've asked before, what happens when and if a Brentwood Academy wins the merit system's top class? There was backlash when they won 5A, why not this?

Let me ask this ... would the only thing that would make public schools happy be that a private school never won a state championship again? They won't win it every year. It's impossible. They didn't before.

[Indian]

Let me ask this ... would the only thing that would make public schools happy be that a private school never won a state championship again? They won't win it every year. It's impossible. They didn't before.

 

 

Why would it be impossible, when the "Super 8" can put players out on the field like they have over the last decade? Brentwood Academy is still sending foobtall players to the likes of Tennessee, Auburn and Nebraska, still with 350 students, what's different now is they're also producing NBA level basketball players, again with 350 students. MBA, McCallie, Briarcrest, and Baylor all sent players to the ACC or SEC from this past season, and Christian Brothers would have if not for a tragic situation everyone should know about. The question people ask is how these schools with a few hundreds males, if that many, can produce so many top-notch football players, year in and year out. If there's such a difference in schools then that's more than enough evidence to keep those schools in their own division. There aren't many public schools with 2,000 students that produce SEC and ACC talent, but here's more than half the teams in the Super 8 doing it. It all broke loose after 2,500 student Riverdale, after another dominating season, lost to 350 student Brentwood Academy, why wouldn't it again? Riverdale has and will continue to be dominating, but what kind of team would they have if only 350 random students, 175 random males, could play sports? That's equal to what Brentwood Academy does. Unless it's not random but all the private school supporters say it is so that's another discussion. When a complete split takes place, unless the private schools go to court to stop it for some reason, you can have these eight, the next couple of largest in Notre Dame and Lipscomb, and maybe Ensworth and Pope John Paul II if they are planning growth like I've read on here before. That's obviously a good league and the travel would improve since the class could be split into Chattanooga, Nashville and Memphis regions. Travel among all three classes would improve since Classes A and AA would also have lots more teams in different areas.

Edited March 24, 2006 by Indian

[tnsddeveloper]

Why would it be impossible, when the "Super 8" can put players out on the field like they have over the last decade? Brentwood Academy is still sending foobtall players to the likes of Tennessee, Auburn and Nebraska, still with 350 students, what's different now is they're also producing NBA level basketball players, again with 350 students. MBA, McCallie, Briarcrest, and Baylor all sent players to the ACC or SEC from this past season, and Christian Brothers would have if not for a tragic situation everyone should know about. The question people ask is how these schools with a few hundreds males, if that many, can produce so many top-notch football players, year in and year out. If there's such a difference in schools then that's more than enough evidence to keep those schools in their own division. There aren't many public schools with 2,000 students that produce SEC and ACC talent, but here's more than half the teams in the Super 8 doing it. It all broke loose after 2,500 student Riverdale, after another dominating season, lost to 350 student Brentwood Academy, why wouldn't it again? Riverdale has and will continue to be dominating, but what kind of team would they have if only 350 random students, 175 random males, could play sports? That's equal to what Brentwood Academy does. Unless it's not random but all the private school supporters say it is so that's another discussion. When a complete split takes place, unless the private schools go to court to stop it for some reason, you can have these eight, the next couple of largest in Notre Dame and Lipscomb, and maybe Ensworth and Pope John Paul II if they are planning growth like I've read on here before. That's obviously a good league and the travel would improve since the class could be split into Chattanooga, Nashville and Memphis regions. Travel among all three classes would improve since Classes A and AA would also have lots more teams in different areas.

Sorry to burst your bubble ... but it won't happen now. An organization that acts as a "state agent" can't limit competition including creating new private only divisions, kicking schools out, or starting a new league and leaving them out. It looks like you are stuck with them. My best advice would be to stop worrying about it and come up with a plan that addresses it ... like the merit system. All the super teams would play themselves into that classification. They would force themselves into that class. Right now, I see it as the only way that we can address that issue and the issue of the dominant magnets and open-zoned schools.

 

Last I checked ... Riverdale has had several kids go on to play college football with a large contingent playing D1 college football.

Edited March 24, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[yellowdog]

As I've asked before, what happens when and if a Brentwood Academy wins the merit system's top class? There was backlash when they won 5A, why not this?

 

While a merit system certainly looks good (in theory) there are huge holes in it. Basketball comes to mind immediately. Jackson County girls may play AA while the boys may play A. Gibbs baseball may be A while softball AAA. There would be chaos in the schools -- you would never know who your district/regional opponents would be from year to year. On Tuesday and Friday nights during the season, the boys and girls would be headed out to different places to play - costing the school system for transportation. What is Jackson County girls had Cumberland County scheduled for a home game and on the same night the boys were playing Clarkrange? What would the Clarkrange boys and Cumberland County girls be doing that same night?

 

When it comes to district/regional basketball tournaments who do the loyal local fans support when both boys and girls are playing on the same night at two different locations?

 

Sports programs can change dramatically when a coach leaves -- one year a AAA contender and the next year a middle of the road A program. Also, almost any school will have a run of good athletes for 2-3 years and then they're back to normal play.

 

Leaving out the private schools, you can name on one hand the public schools that a merit system would affect. Jackson County girls basketball, Maryville and Trousdale County football and Gibbs softball are four that come to mind.

 

What would you do about Memphis? Players follow coaches there -- while Mitchell and Hamilton are baskball powers this year, next year it may be Carver and Washington.

 

In almost every case, a team's success is directly related to its coach in that sport. When that coach leaves the team suffers and the coaches new team starts winning.

Edited March 24, 2006 by yellowdog

[Indian]

Sorry to burst your bubble ... but it won't happen now. An organization that acts as a "state agent" can't limit competition including creating new private only divisions, kicking schools out, or starting a new league and leaving them out. It looks like you are stuck with them. My best advice would be to stop worrying about it and come up with a plan that addresses it ... like the merit system. All the super teams would play themselves into that classification. They would force themselves into that class. Right now, I see it as the only way that we can address that issue and the issue of the dominant magnets and open-zoned schools.

 

Last I checked ... Riverdale has had several kids go on to play college football with a large contingent playing D1 college football.

 

 

How many would Riverdale have with 1/4 to 1/5 of its enrollment eligible?

[yellowdog]

Sorry to burst your bubble ... but it won't happen now. An organization that acts as a "state agent" can't limit competition including creating new private only divisions, kicking schools out, or starting a new league and leaving them out. It looks like you are stuck with them. My best advice would be to stop worrying about it and come up with a plan that addresses it ... like the merit system. All the super teams would play themselves into that classification. They would force themselves into that class. Right now, I see it as the only way that we can address that issue and the issue of the dominant magnets and open-zoned schools.

 

 

Please explain the difference difference between classification based on enrollment, geographic area, or private/public, church/state, rural/urban - is any classification illegal?

 

Also, explain how private only divisions is limiting competition. Last I knew was that schools in private division are not restricted on who they can play.

 

And yes schools can be kicked out if they don't follow the rules -- just like there are kids kicked out of schools for not following the rules. Are you saying that if a school breaks rules orver and over they cannot be kicked out of an organization?

Edited March 24, 2006 by yellowdog

[tnsddeveloper]

Please explain the difference difference between classification based on enrollment, geographic area, or private/public, church/state, rural/urban - is any classification illegal?

I think this is something that the courts will be sorting out for years to come.

 

Also, explain how private only divisions is limiting competition. Last I knew was that schools in private division are not restricted on who they can play.

They can't play the other schools for championships. That is a limit of competition. They are restricted from waxing the likes of Riverdale in the playoffs.

 

Let me take another post off this board. There was a post at how great Ravenwood was - and I agree, they had a great year and championship run. But they were beaten by BA who finished in the middle of the pack in the D2 league. Public supporters were slamming the league as small and easy to win because of the lack of teams even though a team in the middle of the pack beat the D1 5A champ. That is the limiting of competition the courts are talking about.

 

And yes schools can be kicked out if they don't follow the rules -- just like there are kids kicked out of schools for not following the rules. Are you saying that if a school breaks rules orver and over they cannot be kicked out of an organization?

According to the courts, BA did not break any rules.

[tnsddeveloper]

How many would Riverdale have with 1/4 to 1/5 of its enrollment eligible?

How many would Riverdale have if in county transfers from Oakland, Blackman, etc. were disallowed or investigated more closely?

[yellowdog]

I think this is something that the courts will be sorting out for years to come.

They can't play the other schools for championships. That is a limit of competition.

They are restricted from waxing the likes of Riverdale in the playoffs.

 

But a Class AAA team can't play for a Class A championship either. I can make the same argument for that as you can for the private schools

 

 

 

BA did not break any rules.

 

I am not talking about BA -- You stated that because of the "state actor" situation an association could not kick a school out of the organization. If a school knowingly played 24 year olds in a game and had bought players and played students who weren't even enrolled in the school - does the "state-actor" keep the association from kicking them out?

[tnsddeveloper]

But a Class AAA team can't play for a Class A championship either. I can make the same argument for that as you can for the private schools

No joke. That is why I said it looks like it is going to be something that the courts sort out for years to come. It's just getting started.

 

I am not talking about BA -- You stated that because of the "state actor" situation an association could not kick a school out of the organization. If a school knowingly played 24 year olds in a game and had bought players and played students who weren't even enrolled in the school - does the "state-actor" keep the association from kicking them out?

Until that situation occurs (a real documented case) and it goes through the court systems ... we will have to wait and see. Otherwise it is all speculation as to what can or can not happen. I would think that it would be VERY difficult for any school to be tossed from the organization. I don't know about any kind of punishment that would abound.