Open-Zoned Schools

[lazarus]

what can i say,

i aint got all that much education,

so i need you to explain it out real good for me.

 

now, i can see that if you have to have a "good" reason,

then no one could just make something up to get an athlete thru the process.

and i am sure there arent any schools that would stand for such a thing, anyway.

 

you still havent told me who the closed zone schools are tho,

how can i tell if they are being abused, if i dont know who they are?

[dsl]

Bearden

Farragut

West

 

those are just the ones in my area. There are many, many more.

[lazarus]

“Bearden

Farragut

West

 

those are just the ones in my area. There are many, many more.”

 

gracias senor.

let me remind you, you picked the teams.

(besides which, as I understand it, the closed zones in these schools fall in the kinda, sorta, maybe category... just like all the rest)

 

since I am not so smart, i like to rely on numbers.

please permit me to share a few;

 

in the 2005-2006 school year those three schools fielded 3 state championship teams:

 

AAA baseball (farragut), AAA boys soccer (bearden), and AAA girls track (knox west)

 

and a pair of runnersup:

 

AAA girls golf and AAA girls tennis (both farragut)

 

to go with 10 individual state championships.

 

in football bearden finished 3rd in their region, but was knocked out in the 1st round of the playoffs...

by farragut who was runnersup in their region and advanced to the quarterfinals.

 

in boys basketball bearden lost in the 1st round of the state (and struggled to a 34-5 record)

 

in the boys cross country state meet knox west had the #5 individual, while the farragut team finished 7th and bearden 10th.

 

in girls cross country knox west again had the # 5, as well as the #7 individuals and the team finished 8th. farragut was 9th.

 

in volleyball farragut lost in the 1st round of the state tournament.

 

in boys soccer, farragut lost in the quarterfinals to go with bearden's championship.

 

in tennis bearden took the boys doubles championship, and knox west and farragut had runnersup in boys singles and girls singles respectively, along with farragut's team runnerup.

 

boys golf state tournament. knox west had the #7 individual and finshed 7th as a team.

 

in girls golf, farragut's runnerup finish was led by the #10 individual.

 

in wrestling, the state 215 pound champion was from farragut.

 

in AAA track and field bearden finshed 3rd as a team among the boys and had individual titles in the 300 hurdles, 4x400 relay, shot put, and discus.

 

knox west's girls track team championship was led by titles in the 100 hurdles, 200, 400,and the 4x200 relay.

 

at least one of those three schools were represented in every state championship competition of the 2005-2006 school year, with the exception of girls soccer, girls softball, and girls basketball.

 

and how about having a dominant program in one of the "big 3" sports? well good old farragut has played in 6 of the last 8 AAA baseball championship games (and won 3 of them).the year before that streak began, they lost in the quarterfinals. if you could pull away from your self-pity for a moment, you would also find that they are hated (by losers) and frequently accused of cheating. privates have no monopoly on any of that. it comes with being good.

 

in girls AAA track, your chosen trio of schools have established quite a record as well. in team competition over the past 9 years:

 

2006-knox west 1

2005-knox west 3, bearden 5

2004-bearden 6

2003-farragut t3, bearden t3

2002-farragut 5

2001-farragut 2

2000-farragut 1

1999-farragut 5

1998-knox west 2, farragut 4

 

why is there no outcry about closed and open zones?

because it is not an issue.

the only way to make it sound that way is to cherry-pick a handful of "statistics".

 

it has been a pleasure.

[dsl]

Since you like numbers so much, perhaps you would like to compare the winning percentages of open- and close-zoned schools in each of the sports?

[robpride]

funny post laz!

 

try these in 4a

 

halls and powell absolutely have to live in zone to attend!

 

while just over the hill central is open

 

oh by the way we get alot of rumors of cheating in knox but ive not really heard bearden farragut or west mentioned kind of makes you appreciate what they have been able to do even more huh?

 

 

dont remember the last time id heard of recruiting track folks here

[lazarus]

"funny post laz!

 

try these in 4a"

 

three schools results dont really constitute an analysis that proves much

(except in this case, that closed zones are certainly not the kiss of death)

normally i wouldnt have wasted the time,

but

i just couldnt help myself...

when i saw the schools diesel named

i worried that everyone would think he was a plant.

 

anyway, it is too time consuming to sit and try to figure the results of schools piecemeal,

and i am not about to try and do anything thorough

(unless diesel can produce a list of schools and their zoning regulations)

 

but how about a different look.

lets take the 3 most "dominant" of the open zone schools.

(since the other was a sample size of 3)

the schools that are being put forth as examples of open zone "dominance"

if the open zones are translating to the same sort of "advantage" that is postulated for privates,

then the open zoners should also be dominant across the whole range of sports

as are the privates....

 

maryville, riverdale, and trousdale.

those seem to be the ones that everyone is using as examples.

 

so how did those schools' overall athletic programs do last year...

 

well, not horrible.

but not nearly as well as farragut, bearden, and west.

maryville and trousdale had football titles, but none of the 3 schools produced any other team championship or runner up.

 

in addition, they combined for a whopping 1 individual state title, maryville had a wrestler that won at 171 pounds.

 

none of those schools had a team in state championship competition in:

boys or girls basketball, softball, girls soccer, boys or girls golf, volleyball, boys cross country, nor boys or girls tennis.

 

here is how the teams and individuals they did send fared:

 

maryville:

#67 individual girls cross country

#97 individual boys cross country

#69 individual boys golf

wrestling team lost in round 1 of dual meet

171 lb individual state champion

girls track team # 9 in state

#2 in girls HJ

#3 & #7 girls 300 h

#4 girls LJ

state champion football

 

trousdale:

baseball team won 1 game in the losers bracket

state champion football

 

Riverdale:

#22 individual boys cc

#12 individual boys golf

#101 individual girls cc, 19th place team girls cc

boys soccer team lost in round 1

45th place in boys track

#8 in boys LJ

#8 in boys shot put

49th place in girls track

#7 in girls shot put

football team lost in semifinals

 

each of those schools has one exceptional program.

beyond that, they are at best average.

maybe no one is crying out to multiply the open zone schools (assuming they can even be accurately identified) because it would be embarrassing to multiply someone who is not actually dominating?

[Baldcoach]

Laz,

 

Good points, except for one thing. The multiplier and Div II were created for Football. I know that Baseball/Softball are issues (although with different schools) but it was Football dominance that started the split/multiplier and it is Football dominance that is the continuing sore spot with private detractors. Thus, we come back to public schools (and open zoned schools) that dominate in Football.

[lazarus]

"The multiplier and Div II were created for Football."

 

hi boiled, that (i believe) would be classified as opinion.

and probably has validity insofar as football is the big dog and the focus of the most interest....

however, i do not believe those things would have happened without the body of evidence supplied by the other sports.

 

ps. i was proud to see how well ya'll rebounded. i know it aint the same as winning, but it has to make next friday something to look forward to.

(i bet there isnt anything ya'll would rather do than play CPA just one more time this season!)

[big red big blue]

"funny post laz!

 

try these in 4a"

 

three schools results dont really constitute an analysis that proves much

(except in this case, that closed zones are certainly not the kiss of death)

normally i wouldnt have wasted the time,

but

i just couldnt help myself...

when i saw the schools diesel named

i worried that everyone would think he was a plant.

 

anyway, it is too time consuming to sit and try to figure the results of schools piecemeal,

and i am not about to try and do anything thorough

(unless diesel can produce a list of schools and their zoning regulations)

 

but how about a different look.

lets take the 3 most "dominant" of the open zone schools.

(since the other was a sample size of 3)

the schools that are being put forth as examples of open zone "dominance"

if the open zones are translating to the same sort of "advantage" that is postulated for privates,

then the open zoners should also be dominant across the whole range of sports

as are the privates....

 

maryville, riverdale, and trousdale.

those seem to be the ones that everyone is using as examples.

 

so how did those schools' overall athletic programs do last year...

 

well, not horrible.

but not nearly as well as farragut, bearden, and west.

maryville and trousdale had football titles, but none of the 3 schools produced any other team championship or runner up.

 

in addition, they combined for a whopping 1 individual state title, maryville had a wrestler that won at 171 pounds.

 

none of those schools had a team in state championship competition in:

boys or girls basketball, softball, girls soccer, boys or girls golf, volleyball, boys cross country, nor boys or girls tennis.

 

here is how the teams and individuals they did send fared:

 

maryville:

#67 individual girls cross country

#97 individual boys cross country

#69 individual boys golf

wrestling team lost in round 1 of dual meet

171 lb individual state champion

girls track team # 9 in state

#2 in girls HJ

#3 & #7 girls 300 h

#4 girls LJ

state champion football

 

trousdale:

baseball team won 1 game in the losers bracket

state champion football

 

Riverdale:

#22 individual boys cc

#12 individual boys golf

#101 individual girls cc, 19th place team girls cc

boys soccer team lost in round 1

45th place in boys track

#8 in boys LJ

#8 in boys shot put

49th place in girls track

#7 in girls shot put

football team lost in semifinals

 

each of those schools has one exceptional program.

beyond that, they are at best average.

maybe no one is crying out to multiply the open zone schools (assuming they can even be accurately identified) because it would be embarrassing to multiply someone who is not actually dominating?

 

That is a really interesting set of data, and a good point to go with it. It makes me wonder: when DII was first formed in '97, was this sort of data considered, or was it all about football? It definitely calls into question the very concept of "inherent advantages" for anyone.

[Bighurt]

. . . each of those schools has one exceptional program.

beyond that, they are at best average.

maybe no one is crying out to multiply the open zone schools (assuming they can even be accurately identified) because it would be embarrassing to multiply someone who is not actually dominating?

Your statistical analysis is right now as usual Laz.

 

Let me ask this question. How many schools public or private dominate in multiple sports? I can think of very few - Brentwood, Germantown, Ridgeway, Farragut, Bearden, CAK, Brentwood Academy, Baylor, Goodpasture, USJ (who despite all the griping has never won a state football title) are some examples. I am sure there are others but not many. Football gets most of the attention.

 

Let me turn your question ". . . because it would be embarrassing to multiply someone who is not actually dominating?" around. What about the DI private schools that were multiplied in all sports even those where they don't dominate?

 

I am with you on the "merit" system but I don't think it will ever happen.

[Baldcoach]

"The multiplier and Div II were created for Football."

 

hi boiled, that (i believe) would be classified as opinion.

and probably has validity insofar as football is the big dog and the focus of the most interest....

however, i do not believe those things would have happened without the body of evidence supplied by the other sports.

 

ps. i was proud to see how well ya'll rebounded. i know it aint the same as winning, but it has to make next friday something to look forward to.

(i bet there isnt anything ya'll would rather do than play CPA just one more time this season!)

 

I think I could make a case of overwhelming circumstantial evidence that Football was a factor large enough to make the others statistically insignificant, but it certainly can't be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

Thanks for the kudos. We knew the South Pitt game would be a slobberknocker and we weren't disappointed. We were very pleased with the way the kids turned it around, and grats to the Pirates who put together 3 looong disciplined drives to beat us. Our plan was no big plays for their O and take care of the ball on our O. Against CPA we fumbled and lost the ball 4 times, fumbled and recovered on the 3 only to be safetied, and had a punt blocked for an easy score (not in that order) all in the second quarter for a total of 37. We are just looking for improvement each week...we are as young as I have ever seen us and we have multiple starters out. Still, you play the hand you're dealt and the kids are working hard. I think we will have some real good stuff by the end of the season.

[lazarus]

"What about the DI private schools that were multiplied in all sports even those where they don't dominate?"

 

i know where you are coming from.

cpa's fingerprint is a lot more like riverdale's than farragut's.

there are a lot of people who didnt really get a fair shake,

but what sort of results can we expect from a one-size-fits-all solution?

 

tssaa looks to be pretty inflexible toward any idea that includes splitting classes...

 

once burned, twice shy, i suppose.

tssaa looked pretty foolish when they let BA do it, so their secondary programs could be "competitive"

and it turned out that by "competitive" BA meant facing opponents they could run roughshod over with half an effort.

 

i suppose we arent going to see a merit system any time soon,

but the idea has already made some encroachments across the country.

i believe its day will come.

how long has it been since size classifications was a radical idea?

how long since the first multiplier?