Pitchers throwing too many innings

[Coach Shelton]

QUOTE(sluggo5 @ Apr 26 2007 - 12:45 PM) 826445971[/snapback]Nothing major this time just alot os soreness.I can see you dont have a clue about pitching.

 

 

 

Why would a coach want to risk a kid's health for a "W". The TSSAA bylaw on pitching is a little spotty. See below copy from TSSAA and then help me answer my question.

 

C. Pitching Rule (Baseball Only) – No player may pitch more than 10 innings on consecutive

days. After one day’s rest, a pitcher may again pitch as many as 10 innings on consecutive

days. If a player pitched at all in any inning, the inning shall count as one full inning pitched. If

a player is pitching in a game that is tied at the end of regulation play, he may finish such tie

game regardless of the number of innings, provided he did not pitch the previous day or in the

first game of a double-header on the same day. If a game is called due to weather or any other

reason, innings pitched by any player in such game shall count against the pitcher. THIS

RULE SHALL APPLY IN REGULAR-SEASON PLAY AND IN ALL TOURNAMENTS.

 

Does it not require one day's rest if they hit the 10 inning mark? What if they only pitch 9 innings? Let's say they pitch 7 and then 2. Could they come back and throw seven more? That is insane!!! The most we have pitched a kid all year is 6 innings of a double header and then two innings the next day and then at least 3 or four days off.

 

He is not a really hard thrower and had no pain while throwing. Had another kid that threw one inning on one night and couldn't pitch over 5 the next and said "I'm done." You have to know your kids.

 

Coach Shelton

[riverdaleman]

QUOTE(Coach Shelton @ Apr 26 2007 - 12:46 PM) 826446022[/snapback]Why would a coach want to risk a kid's health for a "W". The TSSAA bylaw on pitching is a little spotty. See below copy from TSSAA and then help me answer my question.

 

C. Pitching Rule (Baseball Only) – No player may pitch more than 10 innings on consecutive

days. After one day’s rest, a pitcher may again pitch as many as 10 innings on consecutive

days. If a player pitched at all in any inning, the inning shall count as one full inning pitched. If

a player is pitching in a game that is tied at the end of regulation play, he may finish such tie

game regardless of the number of innings, provided he did not pitch the previous day or in the

first game of a double-header on the same day. If a game is called due to weather or any other

reason, innings pitched by any player in such game shall count against the pitcher. THIS

RULE SHALL APPLY IN REGULAR-SEASON PLAY AND IN ALL TOURNAMENTS.

 

Does it not require one day's rest if they hit the 10 inning mark? What if they only pitch 9 innings? Let's say they pitch 7 and then 2. Could they come back and throw seven more? That is insane!!! The most we have pitched a kid all year is 6 innings of a double header and then two innings the next day and then at least 3 or four days off.

 

He is not a really hard thrower and had no pain while throwing. Had another kid that threw one inning on one night and couldn't pitch over 5 the next and said "I'm done." You have to know your kids.

 

Coach Shelton

 

if they pitch 2 days in a row no matter how many innings they trhow they must rest for 1 day so if: joe pitches 2 innings on monday and then pitches 2 on tuesday he may not pitch on wed.

[justafanman22]

Great topic and great thoughts. Personally, I'm 26, almost 27. I pitched in high school...a lot. I pitched for one season of college and then had to "hang 'em up" due to calcium deposits inside my shoulder that were tearing my rotator cuff everytime I threw. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Getting married and raising a kid has been easier for me than dealing with having to give up the game I love. Don't get me wrong. Kids and family are way more important, but those things come naturally...just like baseball. And it was taken away from me. A few years ago a team won the state tournament with a solid pitcher whom they used constantly for 4 years. The kid had a 95-97 mph fastball and he was dominant. He went to college and after shoulder surgery became an obscure middle reliever. The facts don't lie. From a sheer sports medicine standpoint, the overhand throw causes 17 times the amount of strain and subsequent damages to the shoulder joint than pitching underhand (softball). It is an unnatural motion. DBMOM is so right when she says that most kids don't know how to throw properly. Most high school boys have very developed biceps and triceps...however they work very little on building strenth in their wrists and forerms. This puts strain on the elbow and causes tendonitis and can lead to the now famous "Tommy John" surgery. If you ask a kid if he wants to pitch, he is going to say "give me the ball. I am fine". But the coach has the responsibility to stand up and say "no". If a coach takes a kid out, it may really tick the kid off. But in the long run it is better off for the kid. Who knows what the kid might grow up to be? I don't hold a job that requires manual labor, but what if a kid wants to be a contractor? What if he goes into the construction business? He is going to suffer through that occupation. Many, many people have jobs that are physically demanding...UPS Men, for example. Don't assume that it is ok to put strain on a kid's shoulder because he won't use his arms in the future. That is just stupid. I can see both sides because i was the kid who asked for the ball in the last game he ever played in high School. I got beat and I still wouldn't trade it for the world. At the same time i threw a lot of games along the way that made no difference at all. Non district games, weak district games. From where I am now, I could have done without a few of those.

[catsbackr]

QUOTE(sluggo5 @ Apr 26 2007 - 10:29 AM) 826445907[/snapback]Are you kidding me. That kid could have been seriously injured. Remember I said he is a freshman. Leave it to this coach he may never play high school baseball.

 

Nothing major this time just alot os soreness.I can see you dont have a clue about pitching.

 

 

Yeah, that's what I figured. Nothing happened.

 

Great job Billybuck , you are 100 percent correct. They do need to try to develop these players and not tare their arm off.

 

 

Develop? For what? And also sluggo, you would have probably been wiser to pay more attention in English class.

 

Don't assume that it is ok to put strain on a kid's shoulder because he won't use his arms in the future.

 

 

No one said they wouldn't use their arms in the future, I said the probably won't make their livings with their arms.

 

Just let 'em pitch or play, it's high school baseball, probably the best times of their lives!

[1moreDBmom]

QUOTE(justafanman22 @ Apr 26 2007 - 04:45 PM) 826446113[/snapback]Great topic and great thoughts. Personally, I'm 26, almost 27. I pitched in high school...a lot. I pitched for one season of college and then had to "hang 'em up" due to calcium deposits inside my shoulder that were tearing my rotator cuff everytime I threw. It was the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Getting married and raising a kid has been easier for me than dealing with having to give up the game I love. Don't get me wrong. Kids and family are way more important, but those things come naturally...just like baseball. And it was taken away from me. A few years ago a team won the state tournament with a solid pitcher whom they used constantly for 4 years. The kid had a 95-97 mph fastball and he was dominant. He went to college and after shoulder surgery became an obscure middle reliever. The facts don't lie. From a sheer sports medicine standpoint, the overhand throw causes 17 times the amount of strain and subsequent damages to the shoulder joint than pitching underhand (softball). It is an unnatural motion. DBMOM is so right when she says that most kids don't know how to throw properly. Most high school boys have very developed biceps and triceps...however they work very little on building strenth in their wrists and forerms. This puts strain on the elbow and causes tendonitis and can lead to the now famous "Tommy John" surgery. If you ask a kid if he wants to pitch, he is going to say "give me the ball. I am fine". But the coach has the responsibility to stand up and say "no". If a coach takes a kid out, it may really tick the kid off. But in the long run it is better off for the kid. Who knows what the kid might grow up to be? I don't hold a job that requires manual labor, but what if a kid wants to be a contractor? What if he goes into the construction business? He is going to suffer through that occupation. Many, many people have jobs that are physically demanding...UPS Men, for example. Don't assume that it is ok to put strain on a kid's shoulder because he won't use his arms in the future. That is just stupid. I can see both sides because i was the kid who asked for the ball in the last game he ever played in high School. I got beat and I still wouldn't trade it for the world. At the same time i threw a lot of games along the way that made no difference at all. Non district games, weak district games. From where I am now, I could have done without a few of those.

 

 

I'm 45 years old and can hardly brush my own hair anymore.

 

My first rotator cuff surgery was at the ripe old age of 22...the damage however happened at 17 and I actually quit playing ball soon after that because it hurt too much. I was just a shortstop on a girls softball team... I did start playing some league ball with that midsized "red thunder" at the ripe old age of 21... 6 months later I was having surgery. It took me a couple years to gain confidence enough to join a church league softball team...but I could not get the ball in from the outfield... I mostly pitched underhand which was easy enough on the old shoulder.

 

Again at the age of 38 I had a repeat surgery on the same rotator cuff... by that point I would lay awake all night crying in pain... I had learned that I could get a couple hours sleeping in the recliner...but I remember how long it took me to recover from the surgery and I decided that the pain was less then the recovery... fingertips in my right arm would be numb until well after 2 in the afternoons.

 

Now here I am at 45, I have not played ball since I was in my early 30's, other then to occasionally play toss with my boys...but the shoulder is on its way out again.... I sometimes go stand in the outfield and shag balls for the boys while my husband pitches so they can hit... I keep a bucket close by and gather them in that bucket.

 

Surgery does not always repair the damage...my first surgeon was the Joint specialist down in Knoxville for UT Football in the early 80's (whne I had the first surgery) I rehabed my shoulder at Fort Sanders.

 

You eventually learn to live with the pain... But trust me their is a lot of pain...and ask anybody who lives with chronic pain what that is like. I held a desk job all these years pushing pencils as an accountant. I cannot imagine the pain I would have been in if my work required me to reach above my head all day long...

 

Somebody better follow the guidelines when pitching these kids and realize that winning a conference game is not worth a life of pain.

[catsbackr]

No offense, but it sounds like you just had weak shoulder joints. It happens.

 

I too used my throwing arm from little league through HS to Jr. College to D1 baseball as a catcher. And I'm over 50 now.

 

My right arm and knees hurt every single day. So what? I'm lucky. I have always had a job where I was extremely active, currently walking 4-5 miles a day on concrete managing a 100,000 sq. foot warehouse. It is my belief that due to the fact that you have always had a desk job, that fact has contributed to the pain you experience.

 

We just differ in opinion 1moredbmom, regarding the value of winning conference championships. I respect your opinion and can only offer my own. I will gladly trade every day of pain for all of the wonderful memories that I have of HS and college baseball. Absolutely no contest!

[1moreDBmom]

QUOTE(catsbackr @ Apr 26 2007 - 08:13 PM) 826446250[/snapback]No offense, but it sounds like you just had weak shoulder joints. It happens.

 

I too used my throwing arm from little league through HS to Jr. College to D1 baseball as a catcher. And I'm over 50 now.

 

My right arm and knees hurt every single day. So what? I'm lucky. I have always had a job where I was extremely active, currently walking 4-5 miles a day on concrete managing a 100,000 sq. foot warehouse. It is my belief that due to the fact that you have always had a desk job, that fact has contributed to the pain you experience.

 

We just differ in opinion 1moredbmom, regarding the value of winning conference championships. I respect your opinion and can only offer my own. I will gladly trade every day of pain for all of the wonderful memories that I have of HS and college baseball. Absolutely no contest!

 

 

 

Well you might be right about that catsbackr...

 

I think that what the boys learn mentally while they develop their physical skills is just as important as the wins. Learning to work together towards a common goal...Tennis players play for themsleves... baseball players on the other hand play for their team and any team that works well together has learned not to critize each other for errors...because in baseball we all make them either at the plate or fielding a ball or running bases. Sometimes it is as simple as turning to walk back to first and suddenly realizing that you just saw a "dirt ball"...turning back to head to second only to get thrown out because you hesitated... you always turn back to first after every pitch and you were just rocked to sleep and you blew it for the whole team while you were standing there dreaming about your girlfriend!

 

Baseball is so much like life, I mean where else besides real life and baseball do you mess up 70% of the time and your doing great! You strike out 7 out of 10 times and you still come back to the plate thinking this is going to be the start of a 10 for 10 run! Baseball is about learning how to deal with life when it comes at you real fast, and changes directions in the middle of a what looks like a sweet fastball that winds up being a slider off the dang plate that you already bit hard on for strike 2.

 

So if nothing else we can certainly agree that this is the worlds best sport!

 

And I would be in full agreement with the weak joints if my left shoulder were giving me the same problem...it is not. I know looking back that it was a problem in my throw that had me using a whipping motion in order the zing the ball across to first base... if I had know how to throw the ball properly before the surgery I would most likely have never needed the surgery.

 

I do know that in the 70's girls softball was not a high priority. Even today there will be better high school coaches in baseball then you will find in softball.... Proper mechanics would have gone a long way for me..if anybody had seen or even know that the speed I was getting on that big mushroom of a ball was because I was whipping my shoulder out of joint everytime I threw. I was not a pitcher and did not throw even a fraction of the pitches that these boys from the mound throw....but that is history.... just don't be to quick to dismiss it as bad shoulder joints... after the year of rehab I found that it was imporper throwing mechanics. I watched a pro player coaching a senior on our high school team back about 4 years ago now who stopped throwing for over a year because of shoulder pain. This coach had played through minor leagues and was helping the young player find a way to throw that took the stress off his shoulder...funny thing is it was the same mechanics they taught me when I was rehabing my shoulder!

[justafanman22]

Trust me, I don't have weak shoulder joints, and I have only had a desk job for 8 months. I was a UPS man for 4 years and that is one of the most physically demanding jobs there is. No matter what anyone says catching is not the same as pitching on your shoulder and elbow. The strain for a catcher is on their knees. So honestly you can't really talk about this because of your experience as a catcher, when their are tons of guys who used to pitch who have shoulder problems due to overwork. Weak shoulder joints is a laugher. The physical therapist actually told me that because I drank so much milk that my body was sending the calcium to the part of the body that was being worked the most...my shoulder. This led to deposits on my bones inside of my shoulder socket that were not normal and caused these spurs to scrape across my rotator cuff everytime I threw, tearing it little by little. According to the New England Journal of Medicine 42% of athletes who pitched in high school AND college experience shoulder fatigue later in life while 28% end their careers due to the shoulder pain. On top of that 17% require some sort of surgery to repair damages to their pitching arm. I guess we all have "weak shoulders". Whatever man. When a catcher in the big leagues comes out and has to have Tommy John surgery, I might listen to your opinions on the matter at that time. But until that happens you have no idea.

[catsbackr]

QUOTE(justafanman22 @ Apr 30 2007 - 08:08 AM) 826448242[/snapback]Trust me, I don't have weak shoulder joints, and I have only had a desk job for 8 months. I was a UPS man for 4 years and that is one of the most physically demanding jobs there is. No matter what anyone says catching is not the same as pitching on your shoulder and elbow. The strain for a catcher is on their knees. So honestly you can't really talk about this because of your experience as a catcher, when their are tons of guys who used to pitch who have shoulder problems due to overwork. Weak shoulder joints is a laugher. The physical therapist actually told me that because I drank so much milk that my body was sending the calcium to the part of the body that was being worked the most...my shoulder. This led to deposits on my bones inside of my shoulder socket that were not normal and caused these spurs to scrape across my rotator cuff everytime I threw, tearing it little by little. According to the New England Journal of Medicine 42% of athletes who pitched in high school AND college experience shoulder fatigue later in life while 28% end their careers due to the shoulder pain. On top of that 17% require some sort of surgery to repair damages to their pitching arm. I guess we all have "weak shoulders". Whatever man. When a catcher in the big leagues comes out and has to have Tommy John surgery, I might listen to your opinions on the matter at that time. But until that happens you have no idea.

 

Ok, let me take these one at a time.

 

UPS. I worked for UPS for 23 years. Unloader, preloader, driver, driver supervisor, center manager. The UPS driving job isn't that tough. And why were you only a UPS man for 4 years?

 

Catchers and pitchers. I never said that catching was anywhere near the same as pitching. I said I was a catcher that used my throwing arm, plain and simple.

 

Milk and your physical therapist. Why were you drinking so much milk? And you had a physical therapist in HS? I think I'll call BS on your statement about

"...because I drank so much milk that my body was sending the calcium to the part of the body that was being worked the most...my shoulder. This led to deposits on my bones inside of my shoulder socket that were not normal and caused these spurs to scrape across my rotator cuff everytime I threw, tearing it little by little." I think that's anatomically impossible.

 

New England Journal of Medicine. 42% of pitchers experienced FATIGUE later in life? So? 28% end careers due to shoulder pain? BS. 90% end their careers due to HS being over and not being good enough to go to the next level. 17% require surgery. BS. 17% may elect for surgery, but I doubt if it is required for them to live a normal adult life.

 

Catchers and Tommy John surgery. I said I was a catcher, that's all.

 

Now that that's over, I'll try and be more concise. I believe in LL, pitchers should be prevented from throwing breaking pitches and pitch counts are far less important than that. When they get to HS, MOST pitchers are as high as they're ever going to go and should throw as much as they can as long as they are not experiencing pain. If they're not experiencing pain or fatigue, throw. There is nothing to save their arms for. Almost everyone, EVERYONE, as they get older experience pain as a result of the athletic endeavors they have chosen to pursue. IT'S NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL!

[putboobieincoach]

QUOTE(3-6-3 @ Apr 26 2007 - 10:30 AM) 826445853[/snapback]how many kids from your school go to the next level each year??? how many never play past high school?? is this the HS coaches fault? I think not, talent gets you to the next level

so what? 150 ptiches is okay every once in a while... next thing you know, we'll limit guys to 75 pitches, maybe he can go 5 innings or so...

 

major leaguers at most might throw 120-130 pitches a game. 150 is too many.

[billybuck]

QUOTE(catsbackr @ Apr 26 2007 - 05:40 PM) 826446220[/snapback]Yeah, that's what I figured. Nothing happened.

Develop? For what? And also sluggo, you would have probably been wiser to pay more attention in English class.

No one said they wouldn't use their arms in the future, I said the probably won't make their livings with their arms.

 

Just let 'em pitch or play, it's high school baseball, probably the best times of their lives!

 

Catsbackr, Why are you so defensive? I am a high school baseball coach and have no misconceptions about how many kids will actually make it to the next level. What I am saying is that a good high school coach will make every effort to develop the kids he has to go to the next level whenever possible and not abuse them for his own good. Maybe none of them make it to the next level, maybe they do. A coach should not abuse them and POSSIBLY take that opportunity from them. That is all I am saying. You can disagree all you want but 13-18 year old kids are not fully developed and a high school coach should help in that development not hurt. You say LL kids should not throw breaking balls. What is the difference. Your opinion has no merit if you say it is not o.k. to injure a kid at 10 and 11 years old but when they get to 13-18 it is o.k. to just throw them at will because they have no future in baseball.

[catsbackr]

QUOTE(billybuck @ Apr 30 2007 - 10:37 AM) 826448347[/snapback]Catsbackr, Why are you so defensive? I am a high school baseball coach and have no misconceptions about how many kids will actually make it to the next level. What I am saying is that a good high school coach will make every effort to develop the kids he has to go to the next level whenever possible and not abuse them for his own good. Maybe none of them make it to the next level, maybe they do. A coach should not abuse them and POSSIBLY take that opportunity from them. That is all I am saying. You can disagree all you want but 13-18 year old kids are not fully developed and a high school coach should help in that development not hurt. You say LL kids should not throw breaking balls. What is the difference. Your opinion has no merit if you say it is not o.k. to injure a kid at 10 and 11 years old but when they get to 13-18 it is o.k. to just throw them at will because they have no future in baseball.

 

Well, you kinda made my point for me and I'll try not to be defensive. If they have no pain or arm fatigue, throw them. As a HS coach, I'm sure you can tell which of your pitchers have the ability to go to the next level. If you know none of your kids can pitch at the next level, I agree, you should still try and develop them. Hopefully, their teachers in the classroom have tried to develop them to go to the next level, also, because that is the only NEXT LEVEL they are going to see.

 

Don't ABUSE anyone. The jist of my point is this, for MOST of these kids, HS pitching is as good as it's gonna get, PERIOD. Let them make their memories during their HS years. It is my belief that some amount of future pain is worth those memories.

 

I do understand that several people disagree with that and that's OK, too.