Bad Officials

[oknative]

Good points all around. Two things that are clearly hindering our conversation: 1) we are talking about two entirely different situations (sounds like we are comparing apples and oranges) and 2) I get no personal satisfaction from sending in film (the match is over and nothing can or should come from it being sent in) but our head official disagrees that the film isn't "really the type of play that would make for good training" since he is the one who requested a copy to be made and given to him after viewing it. If he did not make the request, I would not waste my time burning the dvd for him.

 

You just hit the nail on the head. We're talking apples and oranges. A referees perspective of a game, and a coach/parent/players perspectives of a game are completely different. Apples and oranges. Which is why most parents don't understand referees call or no call. Certainly there are bad calls, but most of the time I just saw an apple and you, or a spectator, saw an orange.

 

And if I didn't make myself clear, I don't have a problem with video, if its used for training purposes. However, unlike your situation, most of the video mentioned in this topic has been for other purposes - to prove a position that a referee made a mistake.

[flashgordon]

Like all of us I have seen ref calls I disagreed with (vehemently on occasion!! /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" /> ...and I probably will be in angst this week a few times!) but the game that drives me nuts (and I am so thankful both of my kids blew it off early) is basketball! I am continually astounded at the calls I see in high school (and as I noted, I didn't necessarily have a dog in the fight)! Is it that the fans in the stand actually have a better view than the guys on the court? Compared to Basketball...we are generally blessed with soccer officiating!

[oknative]

Like all of us I have seen ref calls I disagreed with (vehemently on occasion!! /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" /> ...and I probably will be in angst this week a few times!) but the game that drives me nuts (and I am so thankful both of my kids blew it off early) is basketball! I am continually astounded at the calls I see in high school (and as I noted, I didn't necessarily have a dog in the fight)! Is it that the fans in the stand actually have a better view than the guys on the court? Compared to Basketball...we are generally blessed with soccer officiating!

 

I've often considered switching to basketball. Every time I watch a high school baskeball game, the only thing that keeps running through my head is- "these referees dont' have to hardly run at all compared to soccer! " /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[chelseafc1975]

You just hit the nail on the head. We're talking apples and oranges. A referees perspective of a game, and a coach/parent/players perspectives of a game are completely different. Apples and oranges. Which is why most parents don't understand referees call or no call. Certainly there are bad calls, but most of the time I just saw an apple and you, or a spectator, saw an orange.

 

And if I didn't make myself clear, I don't have a problem with video, if its used for training purposes. However, unlike your situation, most of the video mentioned in this topic has been for other purposes - to prove a position that a referee made a mistake.

 

 

Not exactly the apples and oranges I am referring to but you make your point. It is pretty clear you have an unfavorable view of fans' opinions/perspectives and their "take on the game", and I understand why - I have heard some of what you must put up with. Please know I do not condone it and tell our parents to keep it to themselves (if for no other reason because it hurts us in the long run - officials are human too and the more one group rides them the less likely they can be to give us a call).

 

But let's be careful about typing in sweeping generalizations as it sounds like you are equating a coaches perspective with that of a fan and player. I would like to think that I know a little more about the game than the average (or even above average) fan/player. And if there is a good coach (playing and coaching experience in their background) and a good official (same criteria), I find that their perspectives differ very little.

 

Not trying to be argumentative but wouldn't an official want to know if they made a mistake to better their judgement on the field. If video helps here, so be it.

 

One last general thought: I would like to see more officials who have experience playing the game at a high level in the past - over the years I have had little/no issues with these officials. having played the game gives them a great perspective. Just my opinion there...

[oknative]

Not exactly the apples and oranges I am referring to but you make your point. It is pretty clear you have an unfavorable view of fans' opinions/perspectives and their "take on the game", and I understand why - I have heard some of what you must put up with. Please know I do not condone it and tell our parents to keep it to themselves (if for no other reason because it hurts us in the long run - officials are human too and the more one group rides them the less likely they can be to give us a call).

 

But let's be careful about typing in sweeping generalizations as it sounds like you are equating a coaches perspective with that of a fan and player. I would like to think that I know a little more about the game than the average (or even above average) fan/player. And if there is a good coach (playing and coaching experience in their background) and a good official (same criteria), I find that their perspectives differ very little.

 

Not trying to be argumentative but wouldn't an official want to know if they made a mistake to better their judgement on the field. If video helps here, so be it.

 

One last general thought: I would like to see more officials who have experience playing the game at a high level in the past - over the years I have had little/no issues with these officials. having played the game gives them a great perspective. Just my opinion there...

 

I realize that most coaches don't fall into the category of the unknowing, and even players and fans can be quite informed as to the rules. However as an official, you have to aware that most everyone in the stadium area is biased towards one team or the other, and their opinions almost always favor their team, regardless of what actually happened. As with those who post about bad referee calls, we probably refer mostly to the bad fan experiences as well. There are many, many fields and fans who are wonderful.

 

I think most officials appreciate when a coach or player asks them to watch a particular behavior of a player. I'll watch the player in question, but at the same time I have to be aware that some coaches and players do this simply for gamesmanship. Whether the player is or isn't doing a particular behavior, by bringing it to my attention, I may take my attention from something else, or be giving a player more attention for no real reason. Advantage gained. Not to be the cynic of not believeing everything I'm asked to watch, but you take advice from coaches and players with a grain of salt.

 

In my defense, I try to make sure I know the rules as well as I can. My effort is to know the rules as well anyone else on the field. Because if I apply the rules correctly, then that's one less thing that I give away for argument. Most everything else is based on what I believe I see. If I see it, I call it. If I don't see it, I don't call it. Its not perfect, and is certainly open to input from other views and angles. If another ref had a better view, I'm open to reversing a call. Or if a coach can explain that what I saw was actually something else - I'm open to that. But keep in mind that a coach who has been arguing every push, trip or charge, is going to have a hard time selling me his position when that potentially reversable call comes around.

 

Oddly enough, I agree and disagree with your last statement. I agree that experience is absolutely invaluable to the abilities of an official. However, one of the problems I have with high school soccer is that I believe coaches, players and referees who have experience at higher levels - where winning, sometimes at any cost, in the primary goal - are bringing that coaching style, playing style and officiating style into the high school arena.

 

Let me clarify. Most would agree, from an officials position, that referees tend to allow more physical and more aggressive play as one moves up in levels. I think most would also agree that there are differences in how games are called at the 13 year old rec level; high school level; club ball level; college level; and pro levels. Yet sometimes, I believe some referees who officiate at the higher levels, come back to the high school level and sometimes allow the more physical and aggresive play that perhaps should only be allowed at the higher levels, be played in high school games. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I still believe high school soccer should put sportsmanship above winning - EVERYTIME. Its not if you win, its how you win. Simply my opinion, but high school soccer should be called tighter than it generally is, perhaps significantly tighter.

[CLFan]

oknative, I have a question for you about a call that was made in our Sectional, Saturday night. I have never seen this in the four years that my daughter has played and want your take. There was a penalty called that gave one of the teams an indirect kick. Defense set up with a wall. One player walked up to the ball within 3 feet and was turning around when the center official without saying anything, blew his whistle and gave the player a yellow card and said that she was delaying the game. Neither team was set to go and no warnings given. This was within 3 minutes of the start of the game. As I have already said, I have never seen this before and wanted your imput. It sure set up an awkward feel for the rest of the game...even though the kick was wide and point missed.

[chelseafc1975]

I realize that most coaches don't fall into the category of the unknowing, and even players and fans can be quite informed as to the rules. However as an official, you have to aware that most everyone in the stadium area is biased towards one team or the other, and their opinions almost always favor their team, regardless of what actually happened. As with those who post about bad referee calls, we probably refer mostly to the bad fan experiences as well. There are many, many fields and fans who are wonderful.

 

I think most officials appreciate when a coach or player asks them to watch a particular behavior of a player. I'll watch the player in question, but at the same time I have to be aware that some coaches and players do this simply for gamesmanship. Whether the player is or isn't doing a particular behavior, by bringing it to my attention, I may take my attention from something else, or be giving a player more attention for no real reason. Advantage gained. Not to be the cynic of not believeing everything I'm asked to watch, but you take advice from coaches and players with a grain of salt.

 

In my defense, I try to make sure I know the rules as well as I can. My effort is to know the rules as well anyone else on the field. Because if I apply the rules correctly, then that's one less thing that I give away for argument. Most everything else is based on what I believe I see. If I see it, I call it. If I don't see it, I don't call it. Its not perfect, and is certainly open to input from other views and angles. If another ref had a better view, I'm open to reversing a call. Or if a coach can explain that what I saw was actually something else - I'm open to that. But keep in mind that a coach who has been arguing every push, trip or charge, is going to have a hard time selling me his position when that potentially reversable call comes around.

 

Oddly enough, I agree and disagree with your last statement. I agree that experience is absolutely invaluable to the abilities of an official. However, one of the problems I have with high school soccer is that I believe coaches, players and referees who have experience at higher levels - where winning, sometimes at any cost, in the primary goal - are bringing that coaching style, playing style and officiating style into the high school arena.

 

Let me clarify. Most would agree, from an officials position, that referees tend to allow more physical and more aggressive play as one moves up in levels. I think most would also agree that there are differences in how games are called at the 13 year old rec level; high school level; club ball level; college level; and pro levels. Yet sometimes, I believe some referees who officiate at the higher levels, come back to the high school level and sometimes allow the more physical and aggresive play that perhaps should only be allowed at the higher levels, be played in high school games. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I still believe high school soccer should put sportsmanship above winning - EVERYTIME. Its not if you win, its how you win. Simply my opinion, but high school soccer should be called tighter than it generally is, perhaps significantly tighter.

 

 

Excellent points. And I do agree with your assessment of officials sometimes allowing too much physical play in high school soccer. I do not know, though, if those are the same officials who have played at a high level (I just have not paid attention to who is allowing more physical play and who is not this year.).

 

And I understand your thoughts on taking coaches statements/requests with a grain of salt. And I agree with your assessment of what is important. I stress to my teams that it is about how we win or lose that is most important. And I strive to carry myself in the same manner. And that is why I hope that when I do make a comment to an official it is listened to. I am not one who whines, complains, or yells at officials (a mentor of mine long ago told me to think if yelling at you guys/gals will change anything about the currrent situation 20 seconds later, when I am done yelling...I have taken that to heart). Those coaches are out there and they are as annoying to me as they are to the official, I imagine. So, if I would like to think that if I am making note of something and feel it's necessary to bring it to their attention, they will take it seriously because of my own track record in how I carry myself around them and interact with them. I have found that to be true thus far. And I am grateful.

[oknative]

Excellent points. And I do agree with your assessment of officials sometimes allowing too much physical play in high school soccer. I do not know, though, if those are the same officials who have played at a high level (I just have not paid attention to who is allowing more physical play and who is not this year.).

 

And I understand your thoughts on taking coaches statements/requests with a grain of salt. And I agree with your assessment of what is important. I stress to my teams that it is about how we win or lose that is most important. And I strive to carry myself in the same manner. And that is why I hope that when I do make a comment to an official it is listened to. I am not one who whines, complains, or yells at officials (a mentor of mine long ago told me to think if yelling at you guys/gals will change anything about the currrent situation 20 seconds later, when I am done yelling...I have taken that to heart). Those coaches are out there and they are as annoying to me as they are to the official, I imagine. So, if I would like to think that if I am making note of something and feel it's necessary to bring it to their attention, they will take it seriously because of my own track record in how I carry myself around them and interact with them. I have found that to be true thus far. And I am grateful.

 

I think you are on the right track to be taken seriously by officials. And it is a pleasure to officiate games with coaches who are like your description. Are you still in the tournament? If not, best of luck in the upcoming season.

[ref2coach]

Defense set up with a wall. One player walked up to the ball within 3 feet and was turning around when the center official without saying anything, blew his whistle and gave the player a yellow card and said that she was delaying the game. Neither team was set to go and no warnings given. This was within 3 minutes of the start of the game. As I have already said, I have never seen this before and wanted your imput. It sure set up an awkward feel for the rest of the game...even though the kick was wide and point missed.

 

 

When a player commits a foul neither s/he nor any team members have any "rights" regarding the restart. The "fouled" team has the right to 10 yards of unobstructed space 360' around the ball. When a player from the fouling team fails to promptly retreat from the ball or actually approaches the ball they are "delaying the restart of play" which is is misconduct and subject to being cautioned. Since the referee cautioned the very first player who encroached my guess is that for the rest of the game both teams were able to more quickly restart play after fouls.

[VolunteerGeneral]

Which is why most parents don't understand referees call or no call. Certainly there are bad calls, but most of the time I just saw an apple and you, or a spectator, saw an orange.

 

 

dadgummit oknative!!! Quit looking at the the apples and concentrate on the oranges. /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[soccer67]

yeah....it's a C+ world... and people are content with that.

 

So true... Maybe the answer is not "if you think you can do better, take the test and become a ref" but less people taking the test. There are a lot of things I don't do ( Ref, Brain surgery, etc.) because I know my talents and limitations. I would not make a good ref so I won't take the test in an effort not to "dilute the gene pool".

[oknative]

oknative, I have a question for you about a call that was made in our Sectional, Saturday night. I have never seen this in the four years that my daughter has played and want your take. There was a penalty called that gave one of the teams an indirect kick. Defense set up with a wall. One player walked up to the ball within 3 feet and was turning around when the center official without saying anything, blew his whistle and gave the player a yellow card and said that she was delaying the game. Neither team was set to go and no warnings given. This was within 3 minutes of the start of the game. As I have already said, I have never seen this before and wanted your imput. It sure set up an awkward feel for the rest of the game...even though the kick was wide and point missed.

 

I'm going to assume that the player who walked up to the ball was a defender. If she was, I'd have given her a yellow as well. Unsporting behavior for delay tactics. Its a deliberate manuever on her part to intentionally delay the kick by the attacking team. Once the ball is placed at the spot of the foul, the kicking team doesn't have to wait for a whistle. They can take the kick any time they want. There's nothing that says that a team has to wait for the other team to set up a wall. If the defense is disorganized and an attacker is by themselves, many teams will quickly kick the ball for a better scoring opportunity.

 

The maneuver you've described is a common maneuver whose sole purpose is to give the defense time to set up. Many referees simply don't call it. Another version of the maneuver is when a player jogs towards getting in position of the wall, and steps over the ball and then starts walking. Its the same deliberate intent to prevent the attacking team from taking a quick kick that is their right.

 

I've given a yellow for the first time its done, and also given a warning with no tolerance afterwards. My guess is the referee was sending a message that he/she was serious about the game and wasnt' going to put up with any antics.