Carter Says "Volleyball is not money making event"

[PHargis]

In an analysis of where State Championships will be held next year, Ronnie Carter has concluded that VolleyBall is not a Money Making Sport and consequently its not sure of where the State Championship will be held. While figures are not being released yet to analyze the numbers, it is thought that play this year has increased quite a bit and with VB adding a Division next year, its play due to a more competitive A Division should be greater while incremental cost increases will occur.

Play has been in Middle Tennessee generally because of the Travel costs incurred holding it in other parts of the State. Middle Tennessee has a great amount of play and Tournaments during Season and Pre Season Play that draws many fans to the area and Major High Schools that have high interest, make their way to Middle Tennessee along with Major Out of State Schools to attend some of the most attractive events in the State. Middle Tennessee is the Volleyball Capital of Volleyball in Tennessee. It had major events this past year at Brentwood High School with two major events which has been a major area the past two year and draws good crowds due to being in the center of VB Activity. Ravenwood, Father Ryan, Blackman, Siegel, Smyrna, Wilson Central, sometimes Lavergne, all have major tournaments due to the activity of the Sport. All of these Tournaments generally have top notch out of State Schools attending and has become a Mecca of VB Activity in the State. The major reason for the success of the tournaments are the location and easy accessability to the mentioned school sites. Also players, fans and parents have liked the Weekend Play of the tournaments so more can attend. Of course, tournament play has been very good all thru the state this past year due to the acceptance of the sport but Middle Tennessee seems to be the focal point and if the gas situation had not had its trouble, an increase in fan attendance would have been seen even more. The Sport did take some actions with tournaments to cut down on expenses and increased attendance but no attendance figures are available.

Marketing the sport, especially in the area of the State Tournament had to be thrown together due to the problem with MTSU and while it was known and expressed that the Tournament should be held on a weekend to increase attendance, no decision was made to make an attempt to do so. To their credit, it was rather good to see the TSSAA move as quickly as they did this season as they made decisions that quickly effected the operation of the sport when they quickly made a decision of Classification for next year, the schools quickly this season changed their formats of preseason to more tournaments with schools attending events closer to their schools, and quickly changing the locations of the State Tournament. All of these things helped.

So now we come to another mini crisis and that is where to hold the next State Tournament and how to fund the events. Changing locations and putting the sites up for bid and looking at the total cost may not be the problem but maiking sure attendance is not affected might be the major criteria. Going thru the uncertainity of reclassification and interfereing with the rivalries that have been built over the years in this next year makes attendance a little more uncertain. This, with the economy, makes one wonder if the uncertainity would allow High School Sports to continue on its high attendance . Certainly there is high interest. Changing the Tournament Format may have to be the result of all of this, reducing costs to schools and fans. That will not make the vb purists happy but could put off doing something else more drastic. Saying that the TSSAA has plenty of money and someone can bankroll the event is looking at things thru rosy colored glasses. Allowing State Universities to raise prices seems not to be the right choice. Being nimble enough to make reasonable changes and using what you have are alternative choices. Saying that Tssaa needs a way to get more concession money only raises the cost to the consumer. Allowing costs to be farmed out to third parties only raise costs to the consumer. Allowing municipalities to look at the way businesses can help is part of the answer but could eventually cost the consumer also. The only thing that doesn't is to change the format someway. The fans may not approve it but likely the TSSAA is in a bind and will look at it from every angle.

[bb317]

In an analysis of where State Championships will be held next year, Ronnie Carter has concluded that VolleyBall is not a Money Making Sport and consequently its not sure of where the State Championship will be held. While figures are not being released yet to analyze the numbers, it is thought that play this year has increased quite a bit and with VB adding a Division next year, its play due to a more competitive A Division should be greater while incremental cost increases will occur.

Play has been in Middle Tennessee generally because of the Travel costs incurred holding it in other parts of the State. Middle Tennessee has a great amount of play and Tournaments during Season and Pre Season Play that draws many fans to the area and Major High Schools that have high interest, make their way to Middle Tennessee along with Major Out of State Schools to attend some of the most attractive events in the State. Middle Tennessee is the Volleyball Capital of Volleyball in Tennessee. It had major events this past year at Brentwood High School with two major events which has been a major area the past two year and draws good crowds due to being in the center of VB Activity. Ravenwood, Father Ryan, Blackman, Siegel, Smyrna, Wilson Central, sometimes Lavergne, all have major tournaments due to the activity of the Sport. All of these Tournaments generally have top notch out of State Schools attending and has become a Mecca of VB Activity in the State. The major reason for the success of the tournaments are the location and easy accessability to the mentioned school sites. Also players, fans and parents have liked the Weekend Play of the tournaments so more can attend. Of course, tournament play has been very good all thru the state this past year due to the acceptance of the sport but Middle Tennessee seems to be the focal point and if the gas situation had not had its trouble, an increase in fan attendance would have been seen even more. The Sport did take some actions with tournaments to cut down on expenses and increased attendance but no attendance figures are available.

Marketing the sport, especially in the area of the State Tournament had to be thrown together due to the problem with MTSU and while it was known and expressed that the Tournament should be held on a weekend to increase attendance, no decision was made to make an attempt to do so. To their credit, it was rather good to see the TSSAA move as quickly as they did this season as they made decisions that quickly effected the operation of the sport when they quickly made a decision of Classification for next year, the schools quickly this season changed their formats of preseason to more tournaments with schools attending events closer to their schools, and quickly changing the locations of the State Tournament. All of these things helped.

So now we come to another mini crisis and that is where to hold the next State Tournament and how to fund the events. Changing locations and putting the sites up for bid and looking at the total cost may not be the problem but maiking sure attendance is not affected might be the major criteria. Going thru the uncertainity of reclassification and interfereing with the rivalries that have been built over the years in this next year makes attendance a little more uncertain. This, with the economy, makes one wonder if the uncertainity would allow High School Sports to continue on its high attendance . Certainly there is high interest. Changing the Tournament Format may have to be the result of all of this, reducing costs to schools and fans. That will not make the vb purists happy but could put off doing something else more drastic. Saying that the TSSAA has plenty of money and someone can bankroll the event is looking at things thru rosy colored glasses. Allowing State Universities to raise prices seems not to be the right choice. Being nimble enough to make reasonable changes and using what you have are alternative choices. Saying that Tssaa needs a way to get more concession money only raises the cost to the consumer. Allowing costs to be farmed out to third parties only raise costs to the consumer. Allowing municipalities to look at the way businesses can help is part of the answer but could eventually cost the consumer also. The only thing that doesn't is to change the format someway. The fans may not approve it but likely the TSSAA is in a bind and will look at it from every angle.

 

 

You can count on the TSSAA to put a damper on most items... too bad it's always about money... Here is a prediction of what's gonna happen.

 

Yes there will be 5 divisions next year D-1 aaa, aa, a and D-2 aa, and a. Rather than add any teams to the state venue they will most likely drop the D-1 state to a final four similar to what D-2 already has. This way only 20 teams will get to whatever the venue is versus the 24 that were in the Boro last year.

 

I also expect a different venue for D-1 and D-2 like they do in basketball. This is sad for all because unlike most sports Volleyball people really know each other and love to watch the kids many know through the seasons of High School tournaments as well as Club Ball...

 

Just a prediction...

[PHargis]

I would say you are close but the real question is how would the format work in that situation. DII formats are not very friendly and just replaying. They seem to mean nothing, only to play. Hope a lot of thought is put in to the events leading up to the State and make them the focal point they should be. That could make things more paletable even considering a lot of the awards. Likely, it would make the Lead up Tournaments more attractive and profitable with greater number of schools in close by venues. Weekend play is a must without a doubt. However it will spread out the total event and could cost more operationally but less attendance wise.

Something really bothers me about RC's comment and the Sport needs to do something again to help analyze this statement. While no figures are available nor analysis, District 11 used Quad Matches most of the year. They did it for a reason. Tssaa might need to look at that format to see the advantages and disadvantages. On the outside it looks like mini District Tournaments when there is play each time you play. From a cost point of view, and a school revenue point of view, it might be good just to look at the configeration. Then again it might just be a bad total profit scheme.

It is true that a lot of money has to be generated for Volleyball, which is what he said. Finding revenue makers to pay for the sport is very important Compressing the season is very difficult in to 75 days. Tournaments are good money making events. There was a lot of tournaments last year and many schools helped pay their bills by these events. Greater consideration needs to be thought about for money making earlier and not to wait until the last minute. VB and Soccer conflict for money. they shouldn't. And you throw the oblong sphere in the mix and it is crunch time.

Schools need to be looking for Coaches to coach next year if there is a need. Now is the time to juist be looking around for talent. Some schools are now advertising just to find interest. Others in A need to do the same. The situation to just wait until school is out to start looking will likely be a problem as it is avery year when notices are sent out with schools without a coach. This is a good way to destroy a program being built or keeping a program from getting started.

A warning to A schools is to think about some tournaments for next year with a lot of A competition and AA or

AAA schools helping out. A lot of tournaments can be held early. It is not too early to think about the total schedule.

Revenue and Attendance need to be considered. Tournaments can help your play.

I took this time to mention some of these things. You have greater things to look at, I'm sure. The VB season will start sooner than you think, especially the planning that goes in to the Sport. High Schools, don'tg forget skill days for Middle school players as a money maker for many of the Middle School players need the exposure to High School Players and methods. A program builder. Think about getting 4 schools together and getting a two day event with outside help as a money maker. Helps Skills and helps play. Best of luck.

[fiftyfifty]

I would say you are close but the real question is how would the format work in that situation. DII formats are not very friendly and just replaying. They seem to mean nothing, only to play. Hope a lot of thought is put in to the events leading up to the State and make them the focal point they should be. That could make things more paletable even considering a lot of the awards. Likely, it would make the Lead up Tournaments more attractive and profitable with greater number of schools in close by venues. Weekend play is a must without a doubt. However it will spread out the total event and could cost more operationally but less attendance wise.

Something really bothers me about RC's comment and the Sport needs to do something again to help analyze this statement. While no figures are available nor analysis, District 11 used Quad Matches most of the year. They did it for a reason. Tssaa might need to look at that format to see the advantages and disadvantages. On the outside it looks like mini District Tournaments when there is play each time you play. From a cost point of view, and a school revenue point of view, it might be good just to look at the configeration. Then again it might just be a bad total profit scheme.

It is true that a lot of money has to be generated for Volleyball, which is what he said. Finding revenue makers to pay for the sport is very important Compressing the season is very difficult in to 75 days. Tournaments are good money making events. There was a lot of tournaments last year and many schools helped pay their bills by these events. Greater consideration needs to be thought about for money making earlier and not to wait until the last minute. VB and Soccer conflict for money. they shouldn't. And you throw the oblong sphere in the mix and it is crunch time.

Schools need to be looking for Coaches to coach next year if there is a need. Now is the time to juist be looking around for talent. Some schools are now advertising just to find interest. Others in A need to do the same. The situation to just wait until school is out to start looking will likely be a problem as it is avery year when notices are sent out with schools without a coach. This is a good way to destroy a program being built or keeping a program from getting started.

A warning to A schools is to think about some tournaments for next year with a lot of A competition and AA or

AAA schools helping out. A lot of tournaments can be held early. It is not too early to think about the total schedule.

Revenue and Attendance need to be considered. Tournaments can help your play.

I took this time to mention some of these things. You have greater things to look at, I'm sure. The VB season will start sooner than you think, especially the planning that goes in to the Sport. High Schools, don'tg forget skill days for Middle school players as a money maker for many of the Middle School players need the exposure to High School Players and methods. A program builder. Think about getting 4 schools together and getting a two day event with outside help as a money maker. Helps Skills and helps play. Best of luck.

 

I am sure all the schools would greatly appreciate if you could list this "outside help", so all the schools can get on this bandwagon. (A warning to A schools), inquisitive people want to know why they need warning. These schools have been playing volleyball for years, they are now in their own division, so why do they need a warning. Yes it is a grim reality that money talks and bull---- walks and the TSSAA is no different. But Mr. Carter's statement attesting to the fact that volleyball is not a big draw is essentially correct. The big dogs are basketball and football unless you are inner city public and they don't draw alot of fans in those sports as well. But they do draw more than volleyball. What is the solution to this money crunch you speak of. Is it moving FOOTBALL season to a different part of the year, good luck with that, or perhaps throw soccer somewhere else, not likely. Perhaps volleyball has the proper slice of pie it deserves at this point and time. The other sports are just as important to the prople involved playing them and their parents or is volleyball somehow more important. Try telling that to a crowd of soccer, basketball, or football fans and see what it gets you. One other thing, I strongly suspect that if you hold a skills clinic for a middle school that by the time you pay the coaches, helpers etc, teaching the younger kids, a whole lot of money is not going to be made for any school. I have no problem with that, they deserve the money for their time. So again, where is this "outside help" that would be so eager to spend their hard earned dollars to promote a sport that few fans are going to see, thus any benefit the benefactor would realize is minimal. PS, a lot of people in Div II get bored reading your posts always downplaying the Div II state tournament. I am afraid they do mean something. You continually cite how they play each other so many times. Well, you must know Div II does not have the number of teams that Div I has, so it is inevitable they will play each other more often. On another thread you answered a poster about financial aid and could not have been more wrong. You stated that private schools could and do offer financial aid to anyone that qualifies and did not seem to know that you cannot do this in Div I. You cannot receive financial aid in Div I and play sports except at the JV level. That will remain one of the main obstacles in any joining of public and private in the future. Its not going to happen in your lifetime or mine. A person has to know all the rules before advising or discussing how to change them. You can talk about change until you are blue in the face, it doesn't change hard core realities that are not going to change. Everybody plays everybody anyway throughout the course of a season and week-end tournaments, so its okay. And remember if you reunited private and non-private in volleyball all that complaining about cheating, yadda, yadda would start when the privates started racking up those state titles. Who wants to go back to that. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

[PHargis]

/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> Interesting post when you have nothing to do but I certainly will answer part of it and maybe other parts of it later if conditions change. Rc's comment is true and finding other ways to finance is a better way to do it than just to continue the way it being done now. This comment is a challenge for those schools who have had just programs to provide interest in the sport on a low level and those schools who have thought of themselves too small have a program and see themselves in a Division to Compete. It's just like Some in Division II have done. Schools who have thought now about jumping in , and it shows little understanding that there are a lot of A schools in that boat. If one is not careful without an understanding of the cost without considering numerous ways to finance will be shocked without looking at numerous ways to raise money. The sport is now trying to identify itself instead of being browbeat with posts like this from those schools who consider themselves as the elite. It is true that there are some good VB Schools in Div II after they may have siphoned off some athletes in the Area they are in but that was not who my post was for. it was for the small schools who might be rural, who might not be in a county or counties that have private schools or might be for parents in this economical time, decide that they are not able to spend the extra money to send their kid to a DivII school and are looking around for a good Public school. there are some out there. So Dog, my post was not for the elite but was for the Schools up and around Bledsoe County that have a Tournament within their own District twice a year and this year might have a chance to compete all up the tournament chain to compete for a State Championship. There are districts next year if you take the time to look ,and schools that makes A a very large Division rather lumping AA and A together.

What I know or do not know ,and your misunderstanding of my post,u is really not something i want to post on as it just takes up time to satisfy your need to post. Fans know the issues and both DivI fans and DivII fans, sorryfully will discover the costs being higher and more money to be raised. Students needing to take a more inexpensive route during an economy downturn.In the other forum Privates are now beginning to budget differently because of the possibility of student enrollment being down temporatily. What that means to be is good business practices , realizing the possibility temporarily of student enrollment being down. This site will continue to provide costs, possible ways to finance, some of the costs one might not think of and possible ways of helping as we did with the coaches of the Public High Schools who provided 80-90% of the Tournaments in trhe State to play in this past year by cutting down travel costs. They saved the play.

What was encouraging was bb317, while not necessary agreeing with all my comments, did understand the issues that are involved and considerations that might need to be taken. I, in essence, agreed with his post.This really didn't have anything to do with DivII, which seems to be of interest to you but with A schools who really have nothing to do with DIV II unless you are acting as a marketing arm of Division II and are trying to recruit some of those students, This was a general VB post and DivII is going to be around, I acknowledge it and accept it for Large Elite Schools. Time will tell on small schools out of metro areas.

Thats your perogative. This is my last thought on this issue. There are larger area's of concern for some time.i

[fiftyfifty]

/rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" /> Interesting post when you have nothing to do but I certainly will answer part of it and maybe other parts of it later if conditions change. Rc's comment is true and finding other ways to finance is a better way to do it than just to continue the way it being done now. This comment is a challenge for those schools who have had just programs to provide interest in the sport on a low level and those schools who have thought of themselves too small have a program and see themselves in a Division to Compete. It's just like Some in Division II have done. Schools who have thought now about jumping in , and it shows little understanding that there are a lot of A schools in that boat. If one is not careful without an understanding of the cost without considering numerous ways to finance will be shocked without looking at numerous ways to raise money. The sport is now trying to identify itself instead of being browbeat with posts like this from those schools who consider themselves as the elite. It is true that there are some good VB Schools in Div II after they may have siphoned off some athletes in the Area they are in but that was not who my post was for. it was for the small schools who might be rural, who might not be in a county or counties that have private schools or might be for parents in this economical time, decide that they are not able to spend the extra money to send their kid to a DivII school and are looking around for a good Public school. there are some out there. So Dog, my post was not for the elite but was for the Schools up and around Bledsoe County that have a Tournament within their own District twice a year and this year might have a chance to compete all up the tournament chain to compete for a State Championship. There are districts next year if you take the time to look ,and schools that makes A a very large Division rather lumping AA and A together.

What I know or do not know ,and your misunderstanding of my post,u is really not something i want to post on as it just takes up time to satisfy your need to post. Fans know the issues and both DivI fans and DivII fans, sorryfully will discover the costs being higher and more money to be raised. Students needing to take a more inexpensive route during an economy downturn.In the other forum Privates are now beginning to budget differently because of the possibility of student enrollment being down temporatily. What that means to be is good business practices , realizing the possibility temporarily of student enrollment being down. This site will continue to provide costs, possible ways to finance, some of the costs one might not think of and possible ways of helping as we did with the coaches of the Public High Schools who provided 80-90% of the Tournaments in trhe State to play in this past year by cutting down travel costs. They saved the play.

What was encouraging was bb317, while not necessary agreeing with all my comments, did understand the issues that are involved and considerations that might need to be taken. I, in essence, agreed with his post.This really didn't have anything to do with DivII, which seems to be of interest to you but with A schools who really have nothing to do with DIV II unless you are acting as a marketing arm of Division II and are trying to recruit some of those students, This was a general VB post and DivII is going to be around, I acknowledge it and accept it for Large Elite Schools. Time will tell on small schools out of metro areas.

Thats your perogative. This is my last thought on this issue. There are larger area's of concern for some time.i

 

I am certainly happy that this is your last thought. Your posts contain many sentences, but not much meat. You make derogatory statements concerning Div II as evidenced by your latest post. Div II schools have been accused of many things, but the recruiting of volleyball players has not been one of them. I did not realize until this moment that you have a real bias toward Div II. And it seems that it is based on your desire to reunite all the schools in the name of sports. I have not noticed any great difference in the sport this past season. There were the usual tournaments by the usual schools. It will continue next year much the same. I think the big difference between you and other posters is we possess a little less drama. After all we are only talking about a single sport of approximately 20 sports, all of which hold their own importance depending on who you are addressing. I am no more concerned about Div II than any other Div. I just don't like comments such as their state tournament don't mean anything. It means just as much as the Div I tournament to them and thats all that matters. It does not matter what it means to you. PS Try and find a single athlete that will tell you that she has been actively recruited to play volleyball at a private, thats silly. When we get athletes at Ryan, it is due to their desire to play at Ryan. In some sports at Ryan, this is hard to understand given the last few seasons, but that is largely restricted to football. Ryan's girl sports is attraction enough for many. The current volleyball team at Ryan is almost exclusively made up of Catholic children coming up through the Catholic middle schools. One or two came from other places. It seems to be enough for a highly competitive team that can play with anybody in the state. In other words, we don't recruit. You siphon gas, not athletes. PSS If your post is about Bledsoe county, then say so instead of using all that veiled language. To use the term elite describing privates is silly and biased too. Ryan is not elite, has all economic classes and struggles to make ends meet just like everyone else especially in sports. We don't draw that many people in volleyball same as the publics. So if your posts are about the future struggles whether real or not, why does those comments about privates have to be included. PSSS I and many other fail to understand what the big deal about creating single A in Div I in volleyball. The great majority of these will be business as usual, compete in week-end tournaments, along with regular season play, then tournament play trying to go as far as possible. What is the warning about? You didn't answer, because there is no answer. One last thought, it is evident who has the most time on his hands by his number of posts, it ain't me, I have a job to pay the tuition at that elite school as you describe it. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

[PHargis]

Why Dog, I don't know what you are talking about. It's hard to know what you mean. You are just posting to be posting.This certainly not a drama thread. i would suggest that you take a deep breath, reread my post in the context it was posted and forget about reading in to it something that was not there. Seventy five per cent of your post expressed things not true but you have a computer, post away. I have mentioned no school, no recruiting and really don't wish you to read my posts and get all upset. It takes too much of your time and certainly is controversial and really means nothing. Now if you are doing it to be noticed............... But I am no longer going to give you a forum to misinterpret and misunderstand. DIVII schools are schools just like any other. Very creditable.

They just have a different name.

[fiftyfifty]

Why Dog, I don't know what you are talking about. It's hard to know what you mean. You are just posting to be posting.This certainly not a drama thread. i would suggest that you take a deep breath, reread my post in the context it was posted and forget about reading in to it something that was not there. Seventy five per cent of your post expressed things not true but you have a computer, post away. I have mentioned no school, no recruiting and really don't wish you to read my posts and get all upset. It takes too much of your time and certainly is controversial and really means nothing. Now if you are doing it to be noticed............... But I am no longer going to give you a forum to misinterpret and misunderstand. DIVII schools are schools just like any other. Very creditable.

They just have a different name.

 

Not upset in the least. If you only knew what people say about your posts. Too funny that you say you cannot understand my posts. You said what you said in your posts. If they mean something else, its your job to clear them up. Don't your remember the poster who possessed a doctorate in English. They could not decipher your posts at all. By the way, you said in your last post that it was your last on this thread, but we all know that you must have the last word. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> PS Context is hidden on a poster board unless fully explained by the poster, re-read this sentence one hundred times. PSS WARNING to all Div I single A schools. We don't know what the warning is, but it surely will be revealed in the future. One last very important thought, everytime you state what another poster is motivated by or is thinking, example (You are posting just to be posting) misjudgments and mistakes will surely follow. Pretty soon people will wonder if this also filters over into the statements you make about sports. Happy Holidays to all. /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />

[vb71]

Why Dog, I don't know what you are talking about. It's hard to know what you mean. You are just posting to be posting.This certainly not a drama thread. i would suggest that you take a deep breath, reread my post in the context it was posted and forget about reading in to it something that was not there. Seventy five per cent of your post expressed things not true but you have a computer, post away. I have mentioned no school, no recruiting and really don't wish you to read my posts and get all upset. It takes too much of your time and certainly is controversial and really means nothing. Now if you are doing it to be noticed............... But I am no longer going to give you a forum to misinterpret and misunderstand. DIVII schools are schools just like any other. Very creditable.

They just have a different name.

 

Joining CoachT plus =$24

 

Playing club ball = $800-$4000

 

Having someone who has 4,735 posts tell you you're posting just to be posting = PRICELESS

[fiftyfifty]

Joining CoachT plus =$24

 

Playing club ball = $800-$4000

 

Having someone who has 4,735 posts tell you you're posting just to be posting = PRICELESS

 

 

 

/roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[KCdaddy]

way too much BS on this topic... just say it all comes down to money (greed)