You make the call - 10/27/10

[The Drunken Sailor]

It is grounding. There is no such thing as outside the tackles in high school.

 

I will respond to rest of your post later this evening. I think you have some good points.

 

 

It would be intentional grounding in high school. The tackle box does not exist on a friday nite!

Hey, 2 people that know the rule. After reading these "You make the call" threads I'm not surprised that you both got it. Yet 2 of the officials I mentioned earlier got it wrong. One went so far as to say that it has always been that way (another story about him for another time). I don't think either of them have been on the job for too long although one of them was on a crew that had a traditionally big game. Not a game where the newbies usually go (at least not to my knowledge).

 

But I have seen the situation this year alone at least 5-6 times and at no time have I seen the ref throw a flag. A couple of times MAYBE it could have been judgment as far as if the receiver was in the area. This was multiple crews and some of the white hats I know have been in the game for a long time. Not that any of this post really matters, it just goes along with the earlier post of how some people get Saturday rules mixed up with Friday rules.

[IMAZEBRA]

I have read the "illegal forward pass" comment / thread several times. Yes, if a forward pass is intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible receiver, it is "intentional grounding".

 

The only judgement associated with this call - what does the referee consider "the area". How large is the area?

 

So, there is some "judgement" associated with the "intentional grounding" call.

 

However - according the NFHS rules, the "tackle box" should NOT play in the call.

 

There is a system of "checks and balances" to correct a mistake(s) - if the referee mistakenly (and specifically) told a / the coach that "intentional grounding" was not called because the passer was "outside the tacklebox". This might be viewed as a mis-application (or mistake) by the referee. In this case, the head coach should immmediately request a coach - referee conference. The head coach should then inform the referee that the "tackle box" is NOT associated with this call (and high school football). I bet someone on the officiating crew would also step up & recognize the mistake.

 

Referees must always "honor" a coach's request for a "coach-referee" conference (to review a possible mis-application of a rule). If a mistake has been made, a correction must be made - and - no time-out is charged. If the referee does not alter "the crew's" ruling(s), a time-out is charged (to the team). Even if a team has used all three time-outs, a request for a conference is still honored. (a delay of game penality may result if no ruling is altered - if the team used all three TO's).

 

Head coaches should always request a coach-referee conference - if they feel a referee has mis-applied a rule. (these conferences are not used to alter judgement calls).

 

 

BTW - an ex-TSSAA football official is working tonight's FL State vs NC State football game on ESPN (he's is now wearing a white hat on an ACC crew)

Edited October 29, 2010 by IMAZEBRA

[footballref]

Oh, I completely understand about not knowing all of the rules. I have a 2008 rule book and 2009 casebook and I couldn't memorize half of either of them if I tried, especially when a few changes are made each year. I guess on my other comment I should have said that they should pretty much know most all of them. Personally speaking, I think that between the whole crew on a Friday night all of the rules should be known though. What the Umpire doesn't know, then the Back Judge should be able to pick up the slack and vice versa. The problem there lies in who's responsibility it was to make the call though. If a flag is thrown when someone wasn't correct about a rule then the correct ruling can be discussed. But then if no flag is thrown because someone didn't know the rule then there is nothing that can be done.

 

And of course there will be judgment or discretion calls. And of course missed calls. I think a good working knowledge and, as you said, the will to learn more and do better each time out will help. But then that is just me speaking, and since I am not a ref (not even close) then my opinion really doesn't amount to much on this topic.

 

As for the ones I mentioned that don't know the rules, I know for a fact that 2 of them were newer guys. Not necessarily younger, but new to officiating. So I can see some growing pains there, and it is understandable. I do know that all that I talked to were at the varsity level though.

 

Let me ask you a rule question though and see what you say. I have received 2 different answers from 3 different refs. And in the games that I have seen this year where this situation happened the same ruling was applied in each case. The QB from team A drops back to pass. No one is open or a rush is coming so he steps outside of the tackle box and throws the ball past the line of scrimmage in an area where no receiver is near the ball. Is this a legal forward pass or intentional grounding?

Told you I would respond, so here I am.

 

There is not typically many rule changes each year. We are required to attend a meeting each year that the TSSAA puts on and tells us about new rules and what the emphasis is going to be on each year.

 

As far as the entire crew know a rule, you are right, usually someone is going to know it. Typically your strong rules guys will be the referee and umpire. Everyone should know the rules, but these 2 are going to have to know enforcement of the rules.

 

You talk about growing pains, that is true as well. Everyone goes through a period of just getting comfortable being on the field and being comfortable calling what they see. Mechanics are big in high school football. After you get comfortable and get you mechanics, hopefully you will have pretty good rules knowledge. You are really going to start getting the rules once you are comfortable.