State wrestling talent spread to thin.

[Khromax]

Nice post, Cobra. The only disagreement I have is that "maybe the top guys are tougher today than 10 years ago". About 10 years ago, we had guys like K. Ward, M.Keller, J.Yost,R. Blackmon,J. Leen, M.McCarty, Q. Gibson, K. James, P. Simpson, etc, etc, etc... To say that the top-tier guys today are tougher than these guys..?

Im with slingshot on this.......these guys were and are the best of the best. I loved watching all of them get after it. Do you guys remember kellers match with the kid from michigan, kellers throw by was a thing of beauty. Kid was killed in a car wreck a couple of years later....his younger brother was pretty good as well.

[Khromax]

Sling, never said that the state champs now days could beat those from before, but I do think the top kids from today say 1 and 2 could have placed and very well could have won states 10-15 years ago. I wrestled in high school before and after the split from all together to public/private. I was an average wrestler at best and I know the split between public and private watered down the wrestling as it was and is. Just like the private division is very top heavy now also, I see the A-AA split from AAA the exact same way. My senior year I was beaten when it was down to 8 in the private school division 2 kids i had beaten placed 4th and 5th. Again the splits are like handing medals to some that do not deserve it plain and simple. I guess everyone wants this to become like Rec soccer or baseball and lets have every kid get a trophy. I mean that small school thing really killed one of the best wrestlers I got to spend time with in Tim Voiles. Heck he was the only wrestler most years and I think he won state a few times. He wanted it and did not let being from a small school stop him. He went to practice at other schools, went to all kinds of tough tournaments and he became what he became because of that. There is no excuses out there and I wrestled at a large school, but i also helped at a large and small school before and those that want to be great can be great because they want to be! Wrestling year round, taking in camps, etc. All it takes is a will and heart. But enough rant the small school coaches voted the way they wanted and soon enough we will have 150 champions and than who cares who wins it all!

Tims a beast.....darn good Coach too.

[rcpatriot]

The vote passed with the "greater good" attitude in mind, by the majority of the coaches. I understand both sides, but as a coach at a small school during the time period of the actual vote, I was looking for a system that I believed would encourage participation, not necessarily winning championships.

Like CCHulk, it's extremely tough to run a youth, MS, and HS program with 3 committed, experienced/knowledgable coaches. Similar to many other's in the profession of coaching, it starts to take a toll on you physically, emotionally, and time with your families. When you get to the point where you are investing more time in the sport than your family, it's time to get out. As such, no one is around to pick-up the ball and run with it.

Is the split going to solve the problem, probably not. Is it going to help, time will tell. Speaking from experience, if you don't build at least a MS program (non-TMSSA sanctioned) to feed your HS program, your HS program will never grow.

Edited February 20, 2013 by rcpatriot

[PUMMELKING]

The good thing about the split is it will offer the few the opportunity. I mean some schools can not fill a full team both large and small school but mostly small, which means other schools will not want to schedule meets with. No one wants to waste dates and expenses of having a match at your school and the visiting team only come with 3-5 wrestlers,

Now with the split maybe programs can get better with more mat time. It is easier to start or build programs when competiting against you own level. Kids may stick around longer for teams due to not being embarrased when meet is held with closer numbers on each bench. Outcomes may be very different but at least they dont feel like they are "Custers Last Stand".

You can say what you like but the large schools dont want to wrestle or schedule teams that are never full or even offer a challenge.....they use their JV kids if they have to.

Git it time and see if the participation does not increase and by increasing numbers the performance should also increase over the years.

Having only one Coach and starting a program is not easy no way no how. And it takes miracles to even get a team started at some schools at HS level, and for MS it is a act of Congress in some places.

[kpowers]

Shoestring wrote:

There are some schools in Chattanooga that supposed to be good and used to be state powers that wrestle NOBODY and then they wonder why they get beat in the state individuals every year. Well, guess what, it will only get worse. Do you think the Hixsons, Centrals, East Ridges, East Hamiltons , Notre Dames of the world will wrestle Soddy, Cleveland, Bradley, Walker Valley Baylor, or McCallie right in their own hometown? Some of the best teams in the state within a 15-25 minute drive and they will never face them so they can protect some win loss record. Is that fair to your kids? Is that making them better wrestlers? Has that prepared them for the state tournaments? Also you will have to travel great distances now to find matches because the small schools will not wrestle the big schools.

 

my reply to his or her unresearched comment

East Hamilton is now big school so not applicable example

 

Hixson wrestles Soddy, Bradley,Walker Valley,Ooltewah,Gordon Lee,Black Horse(cbhs states #1 team is there) Bradley Invitational

 

Red Bank wrestles Soddy, Bradley, Ooltewah,Baylor and McCallie And a early duals tournament at Heritage Ga vs NGa's best and up until this year attended sham slam every year and McCallie Invitational plus GP West

 

East Ridge wrestles Soddy , Walker Valley, Bradley,Ooltewah and Mccallie Invitational

 

Notre Dame wrestles Bradley Invitational in past has went to Atl to wrestle tough Ga teams , Ooltewah Walker Valley, Ravenwood and Soddy invitational

 

Central wrestles Ooltewah,Brentwood, Gordon Lee,Beech, Bradley, Blackman, and Bradley Invitational

so what and the heck are you talking about...all these team schedules are on nwca...do your research...looks like all those Chatt small school teams travel for tough matches too

btw

Central had 2 placers

Hixson had 2 placers

Notre Dame had 2 placers

East Ridge had 2 placers

Red Bank kicked off two Srs,. that were multi time placers that would prob been placers this year

and I can name 2- 3 placers that every year ...-all of these teams have lost to Baylor, McCallie and Soddy

 

What's up with the red letters Chiggy?

[coachknepper]

Making comparisons about wrestlers today vs. 15-20 years ago is like comparing Albert Pujols to Babe Ruth.

 

Different time periods.

 

For instance...when I wrestled in high school in Ohio, we were lucky to get 30-35 matches in a season and there were maybe 5-6 tough post-season tournaments.

 

Today...there is more access to YEAR-ROUND training, guys are getting 100-200 matches a year, going to camps YEAR-ROUND, and starting at a very young age (ala Football, Baseball, Soccer). The sport has become more specialized and the training, weightlifting, etc...has become more widespread. Not to mention all of the TOP National Tournaments that have developed through USA Wrestling/NHSCA/AAU/NuWay.

 

Yes, there were guys "back in the day" that would be top wrestlers and considered the BEST today, but it is REALLY hard to compare Wrestler A to Wrestler B unless they are the same age and weight and on the same mat at the same time.

 

When I heard about the split in D-1 divisions I was against it (as I don't think we have the necessary amount of wrestlers to deem such a split). Going back to the Ohio reference, just 1 division in OH has the same amount of teams and wrestlers as the whole state of Tennessee (all divisions).

 

Note: Approved by the OHSAA Board of Directors on June 9, 2011

Wrestling Team and Individual Tournaments

Division Enrollment Schools I 400 and more 168 II 217 to 399 169 III 216 and less 169 Total Teams 506

 

 

 

According to the NFHS...Tennessee had 169 programs total with 4336 wrestlers as of the 2011-2012 season. Ohio has 506 and 11,581 participants.

 

But I can also see the selling points on the split.

 

Whatever we all here on CoachT think about it, the split is GOING TO HAPPEN...so let's deal with it and continue to build Tennessee Wrestling to the point where the argument doesn't matter since the quality level will be so high (hopefully that of a traditional wrestling state).

 

Coach Knepper

Edited February 20, 2013 by coachknepper

[PUMMELKING]

Making comparisons about wrestlers today vs. 15-20 years ago is like comparing Albert Pujols to Babe Ruth.

 

Different time periods.

 

For instance...when I wrestled in high school in Ohio, we were lucky to get 30-35 matches in a season and there were maybe 5-6 tough post-season tournaments.

 

Today...there is more access to YEAR-ROUND training, guys are getting 100-200 matches a year, going to camps YEAR-ROUND, and starting at a very young age (ala Football, Baseball, Soccer). The sport has become more specialized and the training, weightlifting, etc...has become more widespread. Not to mention all of the TOP National Tournaments that have developed through USA Wrestling/NHSCA/AAU/NuWay.

 

Yes, there were guys "back in the day" that would be top wrestlers and considered the BEST today, but it is REALLY hard to compare Wrestler A to Wrestler B unless they are the same age and weight and on the same mat at the same time.

 

When I heard about the split in D-1 divisions I was against it (as I don't think we have the necessary amount of wrestlers to deem such a split). Going back to the Ohio reference, just 1 division in OH has the same amount of teams and wrestlers as the whole state of Tennessee (all divisions).

 

Note: Approved by the OHSAA Board of Directors on June 9, 2011

 

Wrestling Team and Individual Tournaments

Division Enrollment Schools I 400 and more 168 II 217 to 399 169 III 216 and less 169 Total Teams 506

 

 

 

According to the NFHS...Tennessee had 169 programs total with 4336 wrestlers as of the 2011-2012 season. Ohio has 506 and 11,581 participants.

 

But I can also see the selling points on the split.

 

Whatever we all here on CoachT think about it, the split is GOING TO HAPPEN...so let's deal with it and continue to build Tennessee Wrestling to the point where the argument doesn't matter since the quality level will be so high (hopefully that of a traditional wrestling state).

 

Coach Knepper

Great point of view and approach Coach

[silverpie]

I (400 and more) 168

II (217 to 399) 169

III (216 and less) 169

Total Teams 506

 

Just a note on that. Ohio's (400 and up) translates to (1,067 and up) here, and (216 and less) would be (576 and less) here. (Ohio only counts three grades and only counts one gender at a time.)

 

Edited to fix dangling paren.

Edited February 21, 2013 by silverpie

[newcoach215]

How are hey going to decide who qualifies for the state tournament? How low will they place down too? How small are the brackets going to be? So many unanswered questions...

[TDArtist]

How are hey going to decide who qualifies for the state tournament? How low will they place down too? How small are the brackets going to be? So many unanswered questions...

 

AAA = 32 man bracket - 8 regions, top 4 medalists go

 

A/AA = 12 man bracket - 3 regions, top 4 medalists go, blinds are drawn randomly

[newcoach215]

So there isn't a whole lot changing for the AAA kids then. Do you know where I can find the new regions?

[silverpie]

So there isn't a whole lot changing for the AAA kids then. Do you know where I can find the new regions?

 

They'll look pretty much like the current dual-meet regions (although there are some potential moves--Dickson County may move from 7 to 6, Rhea County may move from 4 to 5, and East Hamilton will definitely be added to 4--edit, and Stewart's Creek to 5 when it comes on line).

Edited February 25, 2013 by silverpie