orangecrush Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Robin... thanks for the correction. I missed it by 45. Since you trot Ensworth and BA out there for comparison sake... I'd be curious to know the per year average percentage of male upper school students who participate in football at those schools compared to Webb. I would also like to know the percentage of players on each schools' roster who receive need-based financial aid. When you come back with those facts, as you are very adept at investigating facts like this, I'd like to hear your opinion on what you found. I was on the Ensworth website one time and I believe that I read that they gave out over 1 million dollars in need based financial aid in one school year. If they are handing that out to 123 kids, then a huge percentage of those kids are on a full ride. How many times has a thread started about Webb needing to go D-II AA? I am not a Webb supporter, but I respect their program and the rest of us must raise our game to them because they have the right to remain in D-II A. Also, I can assure you that Webb's mission and Enswroth's mission are very different when it comes to football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangecrush Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 I'm saying Webb is in its legal classification and it's a waste of time to complain about it. That energy would be better spent lobbying the TSSAA for new classification boundaries or -- even better -- figuring out how to beat a team who is simply following the league classification model. THIS! /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baylorbigdog1976 Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Then lets hear you elaborate on the football missions of both schools ... Just curious because I don't know either I was on the Ensworth website one time and I believe that I read that they gave out over 1 million dollars in need based financial aid in one school year. If they are handing that out to 123 kids, then a huge percentage of those kids are on a full ride. How many times has a thread started about Webb needing to go D-II AA? I am not a Webb supporter, but I respect their program and the rest of us must raise our game to them because they have the right to remain in D-II A. Also, I can assure you that Webb's mission and Enswroth's mission are very different when it comes to football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baylorbigdog1976 Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 1,000,000 | 123 = 8000. Ensworths tuition is over 20000 so your math does not add up I was on the Ensworth website one time and I believe that I read that they gave out over 1 million dollars in need based financial aid in one school year. If they are handing that out to 123 kids, then a huge percentage of those kids are on a full ride. How many times has a thread started about Webb needing to go D-II AA? I am not a Webb supporter, but I respect their program and the rest of us must raise our game to them because they have the right to remain in D-II A. Also, I can assure you that Webb's mission and Enswroth's mission are very different when it comes to football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangecrush Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) 1,000,000 | 123 = 8000. Ensworths tuition is over 20000 so your math does not add up You get $8,000 per student/athlete if the need based aid is divided equally. I don't know and won't act as if I know how Ensworth divides out their aid. But, I am not about to believe that all 123 students receive the same aid equally. For example, If 10 football players are on a full ride, then that would equal $210,000 in aid, since it is slightly over $21,000 to go to Ensworth. This would leave over $800,000 to give to others. Ensworth can stack a pretty good team with the right student/athletes, which they have, and there is nothing wrong with that. The last thing that I want this to sound like is some type of bash on Ensworth because it is not. I respect the school and their football program and they have worked very hard to produce the teams that they have put on the field in recent years. Ensworth and others (BA, MUS, Baylor, McCallie,...) in Div-II AA had made a commitment to have the premier football programs in the state of Tennessee, which starts with the administration. From speaking with some Webb supporters they don't have that support at the top. This is simply and opinion and the team that I support has to get better in order to stand up to the Spartans, which I understand and welcome the challenge. Edited October 31, 2013 by orangecrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baylorbigdog1976 Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Okay I get that but Webb is playing by the same rules with more kids right ? You get $8,000 per student/athlete if the need based aid is divided equally. I don't know and won't act as if I know how Ensworth divides out their aid. But, I am not about to believe that all 123 students receive the same aid equally. For example, If 10 football players are on a full ride, then that would equal $210,000 in aid, since it is slightly over $21,000 to go to Ensworth. This would leave over $800,000 to give to others. Ensworth can stack a pretty good team with the right student/athletes and there is nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesVLT Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) I'm going to ramble. You've been warned. While Webb has every right to play where it chooses, its presence in DII-AA would make the league better. Judging from the Spartans' 21-7 loss to Baylor this year, they would not be in the upper echelon of the league this year; however, they would make it a deeper division and challenge just about everyone. I would project losses to the top five teams in East/Middle and wins over McCallie and JPII, but very few of the games would be blowouts. A few years in Tennessee's toughest classification might raise Webb's game. The Spartans played two seasons in DII-AA -- 2007 and 2008. In 2007 they went 4-3 against league opponents; in 2008 they went 1-5. During that time span, they were 6-2 against non-league teams, with wins over strong squads like CAK and Austin-East. I covered prep football in East Tennessee during that time and can speak to the quality of Webb's team those two seasons. The numbers weren't large, but David Meske put a competitive team on the field. Given time to adjust to a yearly slate of MBA, Ensworth and friends, perhaps Webb would have acclimated to the league and improved its performance. Webb's enrollment and roster numbers are nearly identical to Ensworth's. That said, comparing the two schools is a misleading activity given Ensworth's status as a leader in the prep football arms race. The Spartans cannot match Ensworth's facilities, talent or financial commitment, nor would they wish to do so. Numbers do not tell the whole story. To use these surface similarities as a basis for arguing that Webb should play in DII-AA is to make an uninformed argument. Philosophically, Webb is a better fit in DII-A. Talent and enrollment-wise, the Spartans fit better in DII-AA. The Spartans are a classic "tweener," and they aren't the only school that would benefit from a three-tiered Division II. In a bit, if I have the time, I'll break down what a three-tiered system would look like. In the meantime, I'll restate my opinion that Webb has every right to play in its current division, although I miss the Spartans' presence in DII-AA. Edited October 31, 2013 by WesVLT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesVLT Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) If the TSSAA went to a three-tiered Division II in 2017, here's how things could look: DII-A: 0-230 DII-AA: 231-500 DII-AAA: 501+ DII-A Mt. Juliet Christian Rossville Christian Zion Christian King's Academy St. Andrew's - Sewanee Tipton Rosemark Academy Webb School (Bell Buckle) Davidson Academy Fayette Academy Ezell-Harding DII-AA Friendship Christian (enrollment of 217, but would likely play up) Donelson Christian FRA FACS University School of Jackson Lausanne BGA Northpoint (formerly SBEC) Harding Academy St. George's ECS Webb DII-AAA All the usual teams The setup would put 10-12 teams in each classification, unless some DII-A schools elected to remain out of the playoff system. But I would surmise that schools like Webb (Bell Buckle) and St. Andrew's would be more inclined to fully participate in the TSSAA system if they faced a level playing field like this. I don't normally agree with watering down the competition, but there are three distinct tiers of schools in Division II, and the classifications should reflect that. Edited October 31, 2013 by WesVLT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhawk Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 My opinion is the vast number of aid students at Webb are not participating in the big three sports. Also... it is my opinion, Webb has far fewer aid athletes on their football roster than the majority of D2AA schools. I would much prefer the TSSAA create 3 divisions in D2, but until they do, I'm pretty sure Webb School will continue to play in the division they are assigned and choose not to play up. It makes no sense for them to do so based on what I have said previously. I don't like the fact that Webb's divisional schedule is so weak either. It makes for boring football games and gets old week after week with no disrespect to those schools. I'd like to see Webb challeneged more week-to-week but playing in D2AA would be suicide going up against the likes of Ensworth, BA, MBA, MUS etc. Is this quote saying that you can only win with a lot of aid athletes? I sure hope not. Taking the numbers provided earlier, Webb has average of 58 boys per grade. They have 35 on the roster and the guess was made that only 1/5 of the team is an aid athlete so that leaves 28 non aid athletes. This leaves an average of 7 boys out of 58 boys in each grade that play football as a non aid athlete. Webb's twofold goal is being a highly competitive athletic program and a program where participation is prized. I'm guessing the Webb football faithful must think the school is failing in that mission statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangecrush Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Okay I get that but Webb is playing by the same rules with more kids right ? You are correct. Believe me when I say that I see your point and part of me wants to agree, but if their (Webb's) enrollment allows them to stay Div-II A and that is where they want to dominate, then that is their right. It is up to the other teams competing, including Friendship Christian, to either raise our standards or go back to Div I. Personally, I would love to see all the privates come to Div-II and make 3 classifications. But, every private school has different struggles and circumstances and must do what is best for their school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougS Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 If the TSSAA went to a three-tiered Division II in 2017, here's how things could look: DII-A: 0-230 DII-AA: 231-500 DII-AAA: 501+ DII-A Mt. Juliet Christian Rossville Christian Zion Christian King's Academy St. Andrew's - Sewanee Tipton Rosemark Academy Webb School (Bell Buckle) Davidson Academy Fayette Academy Ezell-Harding DII-AA Friendship Christian (enrollment of 217, but would likely play up) Donelson Christian FRA FACS University School of Jackson Lausanne BGA Northpoint (formerly SBEC) Harding Academy St. George's ECS Webb DII-AAA All the usual teams The setup would put 10-12 teams in each classification, unless some DII-A schools elected to remain out of the playoff system. But I would surmise that schools like Webb (Bell Buckle) and St. Andrew's would be more inclined to fully participate in the TSSAA system if they faced a level playing field like this. I don't normally agree with watering down the competition, but there are three distinct tiers of schools in Division II, and the classifications should reflect that. Very good analysis. Only question I guess would be travel. Tipton Rosemark, Fayette and Rossville would have a lot of travel. So would Knox team(s) to Nashville. But when did TSSAA worry about travel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owlbooster Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Very good analysis. Only question I guess would be travel. Tipton Rosemark, Fayette and Rossville would have a lot of travel. So would Knox team(s) to Nashville. But when did TSSAA worry about travel? There of course would be 2 five team divisions. Those 3 teams could play each other then play one "middle" team at home and one on the road. Travel should not be a big problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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