chxian

You cw and trackman are right on...in my opinion the biggest reason soccer hasn't latched on in the U.S. has more to do with the hypocrisy that abounds in certain soccer-specific organizations when they talk about the need for player development but refuse to acknowledge the role high schools can play in soccer development similar to other sports. Because of greed, they want a monopoly on playing time and they need to perpetuate the existence of their organization so consequently high school soccer is viewed as their competition. There will be those that deny this but until their is some reaching out to the interscholastic community I'll stay put on this stance. TSSAA has many flaws but no one can deny they have given this sport an opportunity to thrive by permitting coaches to come in from the outside. They recognize that there are not enough educators who also happen to understand the sport and can coach. For all those posters on this thread, the athletic directors of each high school should be challenged to find the best resource internally or externally to help teach their student athletes the game. If the AD's are not willing to do this then they must shoulder some of the blame and responsibility for not helping their kids get better and making high school soccer a true partner with club organizations. This is not about 2-3 weeks of compromise, this is about a real paradigm shift needed by US Soccer and high school associations to promote the game at the high school level. How many inter-city high school soccer programs are there in Tennessee? Very few because again, to play the club route and learn the game you must have money and time to travel. There are some fine organizations that outreach to communities to promote the game but because it is more recreational in nature, no real talent (even to compete at the HS level) emerges. I'm supporting a platform that suggests until high school soccer is respected by the clubs - - meaning clubs recognize there is value in high school soccer experiences - - and staffed properly by the school administrators, it will always be the top youth sport for participation and the lowest in terms of professional franchise stability and fan attendance.

Dingo, Having marked many "1's" (I was too brainwashed to think upper management might REALLY be able to figure out who was filling out the nasty form) I can appreciate your ability to rise within your organization. Something tells me you lead what most would consider a non-traditional business. Anyway, the truth is I'm happily self-employed and will let the anonymity of this board serve to shield me from any further details. Apologetics of justification aside, the only thing we "deserve", as a wise man once told me is to die and go to (you fill in the word). "Grace that will pardon and cleanse within" is a wonderful verse to a wonderful song and it sounds as if you have been a first hand recipient of this truth as have I. In your post to Hoop04 you sum up what I hope the end result of the Public-Private Debate will be which is that all will be together but classified separately. I hope this can be done by using some common sense related to geography, size of school, type of school and merit. Regarding my "nick"...I really wish I could divulge more but the closest I get to Greek is the dinner group I was with earlier this evening. Only one person knows the origin of my nick although if you knew me, you would be able to piece together by information not shared on this board. Any more hints would be dangerous.

Hoya75, Reading your background you'd probably be surprised how close our soccer experiences resemble one another. There is no question that club soccer is the better ultimate developer of soccer talent. Again, I'll point to the 9 months vs. 3 months scenario, better standards (i.e. licenses and diplomas) for coaches, and game in game out better competition. I'm still not persuaded that the 2-3 week period is necessary and I'll let my prior post speak to reasons why. The anonymity this format offers is one reason I choose to communicate here. With that said, I can name 2 players from last year and 1 from this year that are on scholarship and never played for any D1 club or were ever involved in ODP programs. Terrific athletes and skill at their position is why college coaches are attracted to them and they had club and high school coaches that networked on their behalf. I would appreciate a further explanation on your comment that "USYSA and TSSA doesn't restrict players who play high school - TSSAA restricts the players". Again, TSSA and other organizations like that exist only for the promotion of their sport whereas TSSAA exists for the promotion of all high school sports (except cheer which is a totally different subject!). Bottom line is the two models, interscholastic and club, should be complementary to one another. Clubs that have tried to introduce the Elite concept (year round soccer, no high school permitted) have, IMO, not positioned their sport well for the future as the high school experience is very "American". High schools that have put the sport on the shelve in terms of committing to obtaining quality coaches (non-faculty coaches are permitted by TSSAA) have done a disservice to their players as well and are also to blame. Keep up the good work for your team. You obviously have a passion for the kids and the sport which automatically puts you in the top tier for soccer coaches IMO.

Dingo, From one Super 7 graduate to another, well...public school graduate, are you hiring? If you carry the passion of your post into your business it must be a great place to work.

Hoya75, Thanks for the details of your opinion. Though you are on the right track regarding several areas for improvement in the high school arena, your pro-club bias shows clearly and IMO taints the message. Let me give you some specifics: 1. Name 1 high school player that has not received a scholarship or grant because they played high school soccer in lieu of being available for a Gold Level tournament (and by the way, there are many including Dallas, Raleigh and San Diego that occur outside of the high school season). Along those same lines, name 1 college D1 program that doesn't attend multiple Gold tournaments. Also, wasn't WAGS cancelled this year due to the sniper incident in DC? Surely those coaches had to go to one of the other tournaments to evaluate the talent. 2. You also seem to have bought into the myth that high school soccer can't be at the same level as D1 or D2 club soccer. The top high school teams have club players all throughout their rosters and could compete and win against top D1 club teams (of course this will never happen since these players can't play for 2 teams at once!) Now if you coached both club and high school you have to know your statement just isn't completely accurate. 3. At the college level, playing year round soccer isn't necessarily the ticket for a scholarship. Many top programs, UNC women for one, are full of multiple sport athletes on their team because they recruit for fit competitors as much as for soccer talent. 4. My final point ties into #1 which is the fact that high school players have about 3 months together which leaves the clubs 9 months....I ask you hoya75 who really needs to "give up" something? Let the kids enjoy both the club and high school soccer experience but please don't promote legislating that the kids have to choose one over the other any more than they are already being pressured to do. If the TSSAA changes the rule it will open up an unnecessary can of worms. Finally, toro you are a wise young man. Keep your perspective in focus like you seem to have it now.

Does anyone on this board know why the boy's play in the spring? Is it because so many schools may only have one person competent to coach the sport and by splitting the seasons that person can coach both teams and/or is it to free up field goal kickers for football teams in the fall OR is it for another reason(s)?

Overton?

I will second the nomination of Tom Marable, CBHS class of 1982

Donnymo, I don't disagree with any of your points; however, having followed wrestling in West TN for over 25 years and to Takedown's point, why no more success out of the region? Coaches all throughout the state are developing individuals too and there are many more successful programs outside the region. How many team state team Championships have been won (if you consider that a barometer for success)? The bottom line is the feeder systems BEFORE high school are not as strong. This is NOT a slam on the coaches involved because they are giving everything they have. West TN wrestlers are just not as technically sound overall. I personally think the region has some of the better athletes competeing but athleticism will only get a wrestler so far. Name over the past 25 years how many went on to wrestle collegiately (non-club)compared to Middle and East TN? Another issue that puts West TN at a disadvantage is the risk managment liability of starting up and maintaining a program. Given the choice of putting forth a commitment to wrestling or bowling, the schools are going to invest in a bowling program first (fyi not a slam on bowlers, just a financial and liability fact).

o.k. I'll bite and offer a couple of debateable reasons. First is lack of consistent feeder programs at the middle school level and above. CBHS has an unofficial club program which is well coached but other than that there is very little development going on in West TN (some of the larger schools like Houston, Gtown etc. being the exception as they too focus somewhat on the 7th and 8th graders). Second, there are only a handful of quality high school coaches in the Memphis area that can correct and improve the technical deficiencies of the wrestlers they have.

BlueBelly, I took the liberty and copy/pasted your post to the Public-Private Debate board under the Football thread.

Courtesy of BlueBelly on the Wrestling Board: "Just what does high school basketball in the state of Indiana have to do with TN wrestling? Read the article on high school athletics in the December 2 edition of Sports Illustrated. Very interesting parallels. The state of Indiana athletic association, in their infinite wisdom, broke Indiana into four divisions. The results have been disastrous for Indiana basketball. Although, there are now four state champion teams every year. And in my judgement, the TSSAA Board of Control's primary objective (with the spilt) is to spread out championships among their schools."

I'll defer to a prior post (see Caesar Part 2 thread) for explanation of this concept and my apologies for not spending time until now to put the concept on paper to see what it really looks like. Just a couple of thoughts... first, the idea of a merit based system would involve no computer ranking formula..settling it on the field is the only way for this to have credibility with players and schools..a tie-breaker system for "bubble" situations should suffice. Second, the methodology used,sho ld be realistic and replicable and should be one which rewards and incents all teams. I know this is primarily a football board but since I'm more familiar with soccer in the state I'm using it as an example for everyone to shoot holes in. Currently there are approximately 181 TSSAA high schools that play girls soccer in 3 divisions; 90 AAA, 68 AA; and 23 D2; My recommendation would be to keep the same number of state title opportunities in each sport (in this case 3) but of course base it on merit rather than size of school or the ability to attract student-athletes with (some D2's)or without (magnet types) a financial incentive. The number of schools competing in the top division would be fewer than the other divisions and for a starting point, schools would be slotted based on prior year performance. Using the recently completed girls soccer season as the example and also keeping the ratio of schools from each current division approximate, here's what the sport might look like if this were to go in effect: A Division:53 teams; B Division:64 teams; C Division:64 team Based on their 2002 finish, the 26 current AAA teams for A Division would be: Bartlett, Bearden, Blackman, Bradley, Brentwood, Coffee Co, Cordova, Farragut, Franklin, Germantown, Greenville, Hendersonville, Henry Co, Houston, JCM, Karns, McMinn, Oak Ridge, Ooltewah, Red Bank, Rossview, Science Hill, Tennessee High, Tullahoma, Warren Co, White House; the 16 current AA teams for A Division would be: Anderson Co, Chattanooga Christian, CAK, Columbia Academy, DCA, Elizabethton, FRA, Livingston Academy, McMinn , McNairy, Page, Portland, Ridgeway, Sycamore, University School, USJ; the 11 current D2 teams for A Division would be: BGA, Baylor, Brentwood Academy, ECS, Father Ryan, GPS, Harpeth Hall, Hutchison, Notre Dame, St. Benedict, St. Mary The B and C Divisions (for lack of a better descriptor) would follow the same methodology although records, geography and to some extent size of school would come into play more than with setting up the A Division which was done based on Regional tournament qualifiers from each divison. Relegation would be based on a % of teams basis (I believe 10-20% is a typical figure). So, you would have say the top 8 teams promote from the B Division into A Division and the 8 bottom teams from Division A relegate to Division B. The bottom 8 from Division B would move to Division C and the top 8 from C to B. This would be an annual process giving all teams an opportunity to compete for a title based on their ability at whatever level they are at year in and year out. Anyway, I'll go back to a prior post comment and just say it will take an out of the box approach to make this, or any other non-conventional solution work. The easy thing to do would be to just not do anything and let the current process run its course and let the split occur without challenge. If you are of the mindset that the participating players and schools really do want to face the best competition available in their age group to improve their ability and character then giving a merit based approach a shot may make some sense.

Dingo, I apologize for the delay in getting back with you but have been overloaded with other priorities. The concept of promoting/relegating teams based on performance may not apply itself to interscholastic sports very well but it is an idea that could certainly change the landscape of high school athletics as we know it today. As stated below ( copy/pasted my original post on this topic for reference)I do not have many suggestions on how to implement but there are many questions that would need to be answered by the governing body in advance. One question would be "does the role of high school athletics include inspiring the best of competition"? I'm not phrasing that properly but you get the idea. Also, "would the governing body and its members be willing to think outside their conventional wisdom and agree to having a "classless" system based on size/financial aid and have one based strictly on performance"? Determining the base line of which teams are in the "Premier" classification on down would be a challenge and have to be based, in part, on prior performance and size but after that let the team performance dictate where you go, up or down - not your enrollment of financial aid status. My guess is a Super 7 team and the top 5A's for example, would compete not only for the championship within their division but fight to keep from being relegated as well. I wish I could spend more time developing this but have to go right now and leave it to real thinkers like yourself to position this concept properly. I will return.(See below for prior post) __________________________________________________________ This post probably has little relevance to a solution for this debate but the answers to question 3 reminded me of how divisions are handled in another sport (soccer), in another country, and with a different mission (professional vs. interscholastic). Sorry for the length but I did edit the content below from a web site. Since there is some thinking out of the box on this topic maybe it can ignite a thought or two. What is promotion and relegation? Using the country of England for example: England's domestic soccer league has many tiers -- five professional tiers to be exact. Besides its Premier League, England has a First, Second, and Third division, as well as the Conference League, which is the lowest professional level. The beauty of the game in England, besides the high quality of on-field play, is the ever-present threat of seeing your team sent down to the next lower division due to poor play on the field. Imagine, as an American football fan, if the Carolina Panthers (1-15 in 2001) found themselves sent down to the Arena League for their poor performance, while the Grand Rapids (Michigan) Rampage suddenly found themselves moved into the National Football League. I know that this is a radical example, but that's exactly what happens in domestic soccer leagues the world over! In England, it's a pretty cut-and-dry process. The Premier League is the top attainable domestic level, and where every team in English Football strives to get. Each year, three teams drop out of the Premiership while three others are promoted from Division One to take their place. In Division One, the top two teams are given automatic promotion, while one more comes via a playoff. The playoff for the final promotion spot comes with the teams in spots 3 - 6 battling it out for the jump. Seed 3 plays seed 6, while seed 4 faces seed 5 in home-and-home series' to set up a final, the winner of which makes the jump. So, in a nutshell, the top two leagues in English Football each have three new teams. Whether those clubs stay in that league is yet to be seen. Certainly, the clubs who jumped up a level will have a tougher time staying up.

There's a new thread for those interested in complaining about the content on CoachT.com.

RHSFan, Thanks for the kind words. The thought would be to get out of the box and not have classifications based on the traditional ways of doing business but rather use the foundational premise that sports participants want to compete against the best with the only prerequisite being a common age range. This would not be just for football. The starting point for setting up divisions would be prior performance. Each division would have not only a champion crowned to recognize the team with the best results but they would additionally be rewarded by having the option of moving up or staying in the same classification. Unlike some of the other posters on this thread I am not heavy on the details of how this (or any other idea) might work. I'm simply looking at other best practices in the sports world to get conversation flowing on possible options to the challenge ahead for the TSSAA.

This post probably has little relevance to a solution for this debate but the answers to question 3 reminded me of how divisions are handled in another sport (soccer), in another country, and with a different mission (professional vs. interscholastic). Sorry for the length but I did edit the content below from a web site. Since there is some thinking out of the box on this topic maybe it can ignite a thought or two. What is promotion and relegation? Using the country of England for example: England's domestic soccer league has many tiers -- five professional tiers to be exact. Besides its Premier League, England has a First, Second, and Third division, as well as the Conference League, which is the lowest professional level. The beauty of the game in England, besides the high quality of on-field play, is the ever-present threat of seeing your team sent down to the next lower division due to poor play on the field. Imagine, as an American football fan, if the Carolina Panthers (1-15 in 2001) found themselves sent down to the Arena League for their poor performance, while the Grand Rapids (Michigan) Rampage suddenly found themselves moved into the National Football League. I know that this is a radical example, but that's exactly what happens in domestic soccer leagues the world over! In England, it's a pretty cut-and-dry process. The Premier League is the top attainable domestic level, and where every team in English Football strives to get. Each year, three teams drop out of the Premiership while three others are promoted from Division One to take their place. In Division One, the top two teams are given automatic promotion, while one more comes via a playoff. The playoff for the final promotion spot comes with the teams in spots 3 - 6 battling it out for the jump. Seed 3 plays seed 6, while seed 4 faces seed 5 in home-and-home series' to set up a final, the winner of which makes the jump. So, in a nutshell, the top two leagues in English Football each have three new teams. Whether those clubs stay in that league is yet to be seen. Certainly, the clubs who jumped up a level will have a tougher time staying up.

Stokomo - I've always been fashionably late to parties and this one is not an exception. I'm really not familiar with the background as to what the banished posters were doing but we have common agreement that bad language was the culprit for their initial dismissal from the board. Rules of etiquette can only be defined by CoachT and neither of us may like it because they are subjective and may not be the rules we would like to see. I do want to challenge you on the assumption that they are banished without cause this time. Personally, I don't care what type of grammar is used - everyone has their own style which makes them unique; however, the reason I would concur with their present banishment is that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. This doesn't mean people can't or won't change because we all know those that do. If CoachT chooses to keep them from coming back on the board under this premise alone then it is their choice, not discrimination.

Maybe he has a son that goes by the same name but if it is THE Russ Hellickson from Ohio State coaching at BA here's the scoop: Ohio State Head Wrestling Coach Olympic Wrestling commentator from 1984-2000 Two Time Olympian (1976 and 1980) 1976 Olympic Silver Medalist 11 Time National Champion Three Time Pan Am Champion Coach of 16 NCAA National Champions Mentor of 64 NCAA All-Americans National Hall of Fame Member 1991 Big Ten Coach of the Year

Question for you Stokomo - do you think the posters that are claiming discrimination should "be gone" based on CoachT's Terms of Service listed below? Be Gone: If you are under the impression that these are free-for-all forums, or that we somehow are a public discussion center that allows all FREE SPEECH, you can go elsewhere. This is a privately operated website and has established rules of etiquette. You are a guest here and have been extended privileges provided you follow our rules. These message boards are not your right. You are not given a right to post anything you want here. If you cannot deal with these rules, feel free to find an uncivilized forum out there.

Thank you

Good question. The responsibility ultimately lies with the AD, SID and the coach, Angela Kelly. The local papers have lots of sports stories to compete from for space. To her credit, she has a roster with plenty of Tennessee players unlike Vanderbilt which does not appear to recruit/promote inside the state.

I think the main issue with the new format is that there is an added expense for several of the teams. The geographical issue has always existed since being moved from Nashville. West Tennessee teams have had to deal with going to Chattanooga which is no spring break - - now you will just have teams from East Tennessee experience the same "pleasure" trip. There is one more issue which is the number of potential games played on consecutive days. I really think if there is not a 24 hour break before the finals you will have sloppy play and higher injury rates too. Not sure what the plan is but my hope is that they play the quarterfinals on Wednesday, the semifinals on Thursday and the finals on Saturday to keep the integrity/quality of play intact.

Right now West Tennessee but lived in the Knoxville area before then. How about yourself?

I'd give you a good mark if I had one to give matfan. [Edited by chxian on 11-19-02 4:55P]