cowcatcherII

Brooks Climmons, Josh Condon, and Ryan Mosely were three more great Georgians.

Great post!!! A lot to be learned from this. Thank you!

Sid, I loved watching your son wrestle in HS and can't wait to follow him in college! Do you expect him to redshirt next year or will he have a chance to break into the lineup immediately? We will be pulling for him to represent TN! Someone posted this on a thread a few months ago and would love to get your thoughts on this. If you take an average kid that is willing to work hard and put him in an average public school do you think that same kid would be just as good if you put him in a program with built in monetary advantages like Cleveland or Baylor? I think that's the point people are trying to make. I agree that anyone who claims Cleveland doesn't work hard is ill-informed, but the advantages to going to a school like Cleveland exist due to money. All that to say, there are outliers such as your son where you have parents that are invested and willing to make personal sacrifices to pay for outside coaching/training, but those are the outliers, in my opinion. Thanks for sharing. I always look forward to your posts as they are always super insightful!

Alright, consider this statement: Joey Knox is the mastermind behind the plan that built Cleveland into a power. If Allan Jones had never donated a dollar to the program, Cleveland would still be the same team they are now, because Coach Knox and his assistants work harder and get their guys to work harder than everyone else in the state. I doubt Coach Knox himself would even agree with that statement. Again, I don't see Cobra, myself, or anyone on the board trying to discredit Cleveland for all of their accomplishments. They are the gold standard in my opinion, but to say they are where they are because they work harder than everyone else and Bradley has the same opportunities through AJ as Cleveland does is ludicrous. I mean think about Cleveland wrestling under Al Miller v. Cleveland since AJ became heavily involved financially... Would Coach Miller have had the program in the same position it is now if he had AJ's support back then? I suspect he would. I think the Clevelanders get so defensive because they think that when people cite AJ as a reason for their success, they think people are saying they haven't had to work hard to get to where they are. That is just not true, the Clevelanders have put in the work to get on top. All people are saying is that AJ's support has allowed the program to reach its peak when paired with good leaders like Knox. I would also encourage you to consider this... where would Cleveland be without AJ's support over the past 12 years...? A respectable program similar to how it was under Miller, but by no means the gold standard as it is today.

Why didn't they wrestle Baylor last year?

Exactly. If you go back and just read some of his posts, I would be embarrassed if I were Coach Knox or Mr. Jones. You don’t see McCallie and Baylor’s coaches whining and getting all defensive when people bring light to their monetary advantages. Coach Bosken is obviously a proven coach, but appears to be a little immature and insecure. Maybe that’s why he didn’t get the head job when Knox took over? As I said, he has no reason to be so defensive and insecure though. You, I, and others have done nothing but tip our caps to the job he’s done.

Don’t try to convince Coach Whiny. He’s a good coach, but far from a pragmatist.

We get it… Cleveland is the best because they work harder than everyone else and no one on the board has any insight into the program besides Coach Whiny. LOL! I feel like you have some underlying insecurities, but you honestly shouldn’t. What you built in Cleveland is admirable. In all seriousness, you deserve much more credit than Knox. Speaking of… how did he end up getting to coach the team after Yost left when it seems from an outsider’s perspective, you did the hard work getting the program to that point? Honest question.

One would be very naive if they believed Knox built that program. I would say “maintained” is the better word choice. You played a much bigger role in building that program, which is a compliment to you. I will say that it seems whenever you post on here you always become super whiny and defensive when no one is ever discrediting anything accomplished by Cleveland or its coaches.

I agree with all points here. Thanks for the post @TotallynotLEO. Cate has done a great job at Maryville. That will always be a hard job with football being such a focus there, but he's proven to be successful. I'm interested to see Halls in the big school next year. I think they will surprise a lot. Coach Sayne has some studs coming back highlighted by Harlen Hunley who I expect to pick up right where he left off last season despite the jump in competition. I also agree that Gibbs should take advantage of not having Halls next year. I can definitely see the argument for Sayne and Pittman to be a little higher. If we did this list 5 years from now, Winesburgh would likely be a top 3 guy. No one has a program trending in a steeper upward trajectory right now.

I love pulling ideas from off-season college football and basketball articles. If you remember, I published a top 20 programs in the state a few months ago. The board has seemed quiet recently, so I thought this would be fun and give us something to debate. What did I miss on my list? What did I get right? Rank your top 10! I am particularly interested to hear @cbg @oceansize42 @TotallynotLEO @cobrakid8 @noonesfool Top 10 Head Coaches in the State 1. Pat Simpson (Father Ryan)—In Coach Simpson 45 years as the head coach at Father Ryan High School, his teams have won an astounding 22 state titles making him undeniable the GOAT. His tenure mirrors a Mike Kryzyzewski comparison at Duke as he has proven to have an ability to adapt over time winning multiple titles across 4.5 decades. Just when one might have thought his best days were behind him after having not won a title since 2017, his Purple Irish upset national power Baylor to claim the 2023 State Duals Championship this season, which led to him being a awarded his second National Prep Coach of the Year honor (2016, 2023). 2. Joey Knox (Cleveland)—It is hard to image a coach winning both a state dual and traditional title every single year on the job being #2 on the list, but Coach Knox is well on his way to assuming the #1 slot having won a perfect 12 titles in six seasons at Cleveland. When you look at the debate between #1 and #2 on this list, I compare it to trying to decide between Nick Saban and Kirby Smart. Knox has done a great job steering the ship and capitalizing on the built-in advantages Cleveland has to offer with a kids club and booster support that is second to none. Knox also holds a 1-0 record over the #4 coach on this list after his Blue Raiders upset the nationally ranked Red Raiders at the Lake Norman Duals in 2022. You will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgeable teacher of the sport than Knox, a former NCAA qualifier and SoCon Champ during his days on the mat for the Mocs. 3. Greg Foreman (Pigeon Forge)—Foreman, an Oklahoma native who wrestled collegiately at Carson-Newman has solidified a spot on the Mount Rushmore of TN Wrestling Coaches. You know Foreman is one of the best to ever do it when his last state title was in 2021 and that feels like a long time. Coach Foreman has claimed 11 state titles at the helm for the Tigers (6 traditional, 5 duals) and finished second 4 times. Prior to this year, his teams had qualified for the state duals 11 consecutive years including 12 of the past 14 seasons. Since the A/AA split for the traditional tournament in 2014, Foreman’s Tigers have won the traditional title 6 of 10 times and only finished outside the top 3 once (6th in 2018). 4. Rex Kendle (Baylor)—Since taking over the program in 2021, Coach Kendle has led Baylor to 5 state titles in 6 tries over the past three years only missing out on the state duals this season. Baylor’s dominance since 2000 under legendary Jim Morgan and Ben Nelson has been remarkable, but Kendle has somehow managed to even elevate the program even further. In 2022, Baylor received recognition as a top 25 team nationally early on before Joey Knox’s Cleveland team upset Kendle’s Red Raiders at a dual tournament in NC. The former Michigan State grappler has revolutionized Baylor’s program making it a top destination for out of state wrestlers across the country. Some may not agree with his approach, but his vision has undoubtedly proven successful as his program regularly produces multiple D1 prospects every year. 5. Houston Clements (Signal Mountain)—Oddly enough, Clements was once a standout wrestler under Kendle at Baylor and now he finds himself just a slot behind his former assistant coach. Coach Clements rounds out my top 5 for his ability to do more with less. During a short one-year run at Whitwell, he led his team to an 11th place finish in the 2021 state tournament. He would then take over a Signal Mountain team that only returned 4 starters and navigated one of the biggest upsets in recent memory over a star-studded Greeneville team to capture the 2022 state duals championship. The former Tar Heel wrestler’s teams have finished no worse than second during his time at SM, but he is down to only two Uhorchucks now, and it will be interesting to see how the rivalry plays out between he and the #9 coach’s up and coming team over the next 5-10 years. 6. John Kramer (Wilson Central) 7. Pete Miller (Summit) 8. Shannon Sayne (Halls) 9. Ulric Winesburgh (Soddy-Daisy) 10. Randy Shelton (Greeneville) Honorable Mention (in no particular order): Chris Lewis (MUS), Damon Smith (Brentwood), Wes Idlette (Dobyns-Bennett), Tim Pittman (Gibbs), Mike Sutherland (Boyd Buchanan), Patrick Simpson (MBA) Side note: Does anyone know if Cleveland and Baylor will wrestle a dual this year or why they didn't last year? Seems like a given that those two would want to wrestle each other every year?

Great list! I would throw out Rusty Blackmon at 184 during Oklahoma State's last run of dominance. Corey Manson was another solid starter at Cornell at 133 (I think, maybe 141), but I wouldn't put him ahead of Keller or Cleveland. Chris Debien was another great one at 141.

I think you raise a great point with the two scenarios here @TotallynotLEO. It's like the old saying, "Money doesn't always buy happiness, but it sure does help!" LOL. All great points by @cbg as well. But I do think that saying also applies to wrestling. Money, facilities, and good coaches don't always translate to state titles, but man they sure do help as LEO points out in his example. No, it won't ever be a completely even playing field, but I do think the divisions are a good thing. I am personally a fan of the 3 current divisions, but I could get behind the idea of there being just two (public and private) the way it used to be v. one single division. The D1 (A) division has been so much fun to follow since its inception. I put this in a post a few months ago, but in small school, you have seen 7 different teams (Hixson, Pigeon Forge, Gibbs, Fairview, Signal, Greeneville, and Halls) win state titles since 2014. Soddy is positioned to make it 8 in the past 10 years. In D2, CBHS is the only team to have won a state title other than Baylor and Father Ryan in the past 10 years. In D1 (AA), only Cleveland and Bradley have won titles in the past 10 years. I am curious, is there a grid for TN that shows participation rise/decline like the one you shared from CA @mat73557? That would be interesting! Thanks all for your insights!

@cbg I usually agree with you on most things and always respect your opinion. So I wanted to ask if you could elaborate please? I am a proponent of there being classifications, but I am sure you have a valid rationale behind why you want one division, so maybe you can change mine and others opinions. For me, I just go back to the fact that some schools have clear built-in advantages that other schools don't. For instance, Baylor and McCallie can put a kid on that mat at the state tournament from ANYWHERE across the GLOBE. How many out of state kids move to Greenback HS (smallest public school) for wrestling? I would also add that schools like Baylor, McCallie, Cleveland, Father Ryan, MBA (you get the point), etc. have college level facilities/coaches and financial backing that a school like Cascade HS will never have. There's a reason why Steve Logsdon never wrestled teams like McCallie and Baylor when he was at the helm at Bradley... and they were great! Classifications are there for a reason even in individual sports like wrestling. It's all about trying to trying provide a somewhat even playing field. You can't expect teams from 95% of these public schools to be able to consistently compete with the private schools. Some of these schools like Baylor, McCallie, MBA, etc. are some of the best schools in the entire country.

I have been informed that you were correct @cbg. It has now been confirmed that Tennessee will go with the new 14 weight class option next year. 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 175, 190, 215, 285

Phenomenal post! "Of the 180 schools who competed at regionals, only 31 had a full 14 man lineup." What a crazy statistic... That's eye opening! Great research!

LOL! You are right. There is no telling where they will land on this. I would be in favor of moving to 12 as well. We would see much better matches and few opportunities for top level contenders to run from each other in the postseason. Based on what my source told me, they were almost certain that boys and girls would have the same number of weight classes. I guess we will see what that means soon!

Interesting. I actually heard from a board member that they were leaning toward going 13 to align the number of boy’s weights with the girls. This source said they would be 107, 114, 121, 127, 133, 139, 145, 152, 160, 172, 189, 215, 285. Jury is still out though.

@cbg and @oceansize42 are easily two of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. I always look forward to reading their posts! Great to see you back on the board @RMC ! You are one of the OG's! I remember you always having the inside scoop on Collins Hill during the height of their dynasty.

I am confident you are correct, Leo! 8 different state champs in 11 years... how can that not be entertaining??? Although I do think your Trojans are big favorites going into next year, I will add that one thing that makes Single A so fun is that you usually go into the year where you have 3-5 teams with a legit shot at winning it. That's something you just don't see in the other two divisions where Cleveland and Baylor are king, and you certainly would not see if in a combined division.

From a fan's perspective, I will say that I have loved having three divisions. We have seen 7 different teams win state titles in the small school in the past 10 years with Hixson, Gibbs, Pigeon Forge, Fairview, Greeneville, Signal Mountain, and Halls. DII, Ryan and Baylor have won every single dual and traditional title with the exception of CBHS grabbing 1 in the past 10 years. Big school, Cleveland has won every dual and traditional title in the past 10 years with the exception of Bradley winning titles in 2016 and 2017, I believe. The parity in the small school division has given me a reason to be interested in team races and follow many different programs. If we went back to having one combined division, I suspect Baylor and Cleveland would win the state 97% of the time with Ryan having an outside shot once every 10 years or so. I think you also have to look at the the idea of having one division by using your common sense. How is it fair for a kid from an avg. public school to have to compete against a kid imported from out of state to a school like Baylor or McCallie to win a state title? The private schools have countless built in advantages due to money that the public schools outside of Cleveland will never have such as facilities, coaching, etc. The opportunities simply aren't the same. And for this very reason, we can discuss the topic all we want, but in today's world there is one thing I do know for certain: The TSSAA is more likely to add another division than they are to combine divisions. There will NEVER again be a single division for duals or traditional. That is a fact. Again, this is all from a fan's perspective. I can see why many others want one division. You could see state final matchups between guys like Dupill and Norman. Just my opinion, but I like it the way it is with the different divisions currently.

Thank you for the post cbg. Very insightful as always and some great points raised!

Thanks for all of the feedback! I agree with Swipes that G'ville was a miss. I edited my OP and put them in there. To reclarify, my rankings are of course just based off opinion, which is why I welcome the scrutiny and love hearing everyone's thoughts. The results of the past 5 years were a factor, but if you refer to my OP, I based these on more than just that including recent success, current roster, coaching, tradition, middle school/kid's club, expectations, facilities, support/resources, and how hard/easy it is to win at a given place. When you consider those factors, I think teams like Soddy Daisy, Signal Mountain, and Pigeon Forge are much better positioned to win titles that Bradley Central or Wilson Central because they don't have a juggernaut like Cleveland standing in their way. I can definitely see Rasslinking's argument to have WC a little higher on the list though. I by no means am trying to suggest the small school teams would beat teams like WC or BC. As a matter of fact, I think Cleveland beat Pigeon Forge by 60+ points a few years ago, and BC beat Signal by 20+ last year. This is all just relative to a team's ability to win in their given classification. With Soddy for ex., you can't buy into their results over the past 5 years much since they have moved down a class. I would love to hear what cbg and Oceansize think. Who would you all have in your top 10?

Good point. They should be in there. They’ve definitely been a top program since Hunter Mason and the Dupill brothers arrive. The future is somewhat unclear as to where they go from here though. Where would you place them?

You can access the traditional results here: https://tssaasports.com/history/results/?sport=wrestling And the state duals results here: https://tssaasports.com/history/results/?sport=wrestling-duals