Ohio Vol

I think the first question is this. What is the problem that needs addressed? Is it private schools dominating football? Is it private schools dominating other sports? Is "domination" determined by number of championships won, by number of playoff teams, or by number of "high-level" teams? Is the idea of recruiting for strictly athletics the problem? Antwan, I think he uses "giving the shaft" to refer to those small private schools who don't excel at sports (nor have any desire to have their prestige determined on the gridiron) and will never have that chance due to playing up two levels. To give an example, there are five Catholic schools in Columbus. Two of them dominate football at the Division 2 and 3 levels, two others are average in Division 5, and the fifth one is an annual joke in football. They've won something like two conference games in 22 years, and haven't beaten their primary rival since the late 1970s. They don't really care; they average around $2 million in scholarships for every senior class of around 150 boys. Now, if they were to get some incoming freshmen who passed all the tough entrance exams and played football, they'd be going up against the mammoth powerhouses with an enrollment of up to 1800 kids (compared to their 600) in Division 1. They'd be hard-pressed to even make the playoffs, let alone win. After all, the Division 1 regional champions (four of them) ordinarily all find their way into the USA Today Super 25; you're asking a one-year wonder to go up against them. What the multiplier inherently says is that public school students are only 55% as good as a private school student. Frankly, I'd be steamed just about that. That's like the way that the inherent message of affirmative action is that minorities aren't good enough or smart enough to make it on their own, so there has to be legislation to "level the playing field." My primary problem with a total split anywhere is the economics of the situation don't make sense. Let's say that privates and publics aren't allowed to play each other in anything; how far then does a school have to go to simply play a game? Besides much longer bus rides (even to the point of possibly chartering buses), there's the possiblity of lodging, more time missed in school, etc. We've already seen that in Ohio where some publics refuse to play good private schools; the end result is that the good privates have to play anywhere from 2-5 hours away at least 4 times out of 10 games. That's a total waste of money and resources, and a tremendous drain on an educational system that is in business to educate.

Here's how the last 25 years of Ohio look; this year has been excepted. Every division except D-6 has had 25 state title games played; D-6 has had 11 since it was first formed in 1994. Remember, Division 1 is the biggest and 6 the smallest. Also keep in mind that Ohio does not have splits or multipliers Division 1 -- 25 games, 50 total appearances......25 private appearances, 25 public appearances.....privates 15-10, publics 10-15.....title game has been private vs private 5 times, public vs public 5 times Division 2 -- 25 games, 50 total appearances.....12 private appearances, 39 public appearances...privates 8-4, publics 17-21.....title game has been private vs private 2 times, public vs public 16 times Division 3 -- 25 games, 50 total appearances.....30 private appearances, 20 public appearances...privates 21-9, publics 4-16.....title game has been private vs private 9 times, public vs public 4 times Division 4 -- 25 games, 50 total appearances.....13 private appearances, 37 public appearances...privates 9-4, publics 16-21.....title game has been private vs private 2 times, public vs public 14 times Division 5 -- 25 games, 50 total appearances.....16 private appearances, 34 public appearances...privates 9-7, publics 16-18.....title game has been private vs private 1 time, public vs public 10 times Division 6 -- 11 games, 22 total appearances.....7 private appearances, 15 public appearances...privates 3-4, publics 8-7.....title game has been private vs private 3 times, public vs public 7 times Non-religious private school CAPE (no longer exists) is 3-1 in 4 title games Non-religious private school Gahanna Columbus Academy is 2-0 in 2 title games For a complete spreadsheet including scores, check here. This year's scores and matchups have not yet been updated.

It'd be a shame to see that happen. The reason I've never (and will never) advocated a split or multiplier is because I believe it to be a built-in excuse. I was reading a thread in the main football forum where someone had mentioned putting open zone public schools in D-II, then someone else threw out the idea (facetiously) of putting open zones in their own division, private non-financial aid in their own division, private financial aid in their own division, and everyone else in their own...or else just stop the season after 10 games and give everyone a trophy and participation award. My personal feeling is that the advantages and disadvantages between any of the factions are too great to quantify, let alone legislate away. There is no way to legislate equality, and is egalitarianism in football really a desired goal to begin with? There are certainly schools (both public and private) that have the type of facilities that smaller college teams lack, and there are others (both public and private) that practice in overgrown weeds. But no one is suggesting that those schools or districts with higher property values should have their own division. Just to quickly explain the Ohio divisional setup...there are 6 divisions; 1 is the largest and 6 is the smallest. To determine divisional alignment, the total number of able-bodied boys in the freshman, sophomore, and junior classes are tallied up; there then is a threshold for each division (i.e. 529+ is Division 1, 363-528 is Division 2, etc) that is as close to equal school numbers in each division. Each division has between 116-124 schools; the total number is 716. Schools do NOT have the option to move up a division for any reason. The able-bodied stipulation in student body count is to ensure that public schools are not disadvantaged by having those physically unable to play counted against them. There's one champion per division, so there's 6 title teams out of 716. (As I mentioned in the Ohio update thread, it's an even split this year; I can look up previous years if you'd like to see how it looks over time) The state is then broken down into four regions per division, and the top 8 teams in each region make the playoffs. Each division has different boundary lines to allow for a like number of schools to be in each region. The maps can be views in PDF format here. Just a quick warning for dialups: that link will take a while to load. As I mentioned before, every system has its strengths and flaws. The big question is how to address them in a way that works to the benefit of the schools and the kids involved. I guess if there was an easy answer, we wouldn't be having this discussion though.

Antwan, First off, I am a former (and future) resident of the state of Tennessee. Second, I'm fully aware of the myopia that develops within a particular set of issues when there is no outside perspective from how others in a similar situation address it. Every year around playoff and championship time, the familiar cries start up over how great or how deficient a particular system is. Nearly every state has a system unique to itself; not many people have the ability (or time) to investigate how certain ones do it. Since Ohio is my current residence and a terrific state for football (and also has no splits or multipliers), I believe it to be beneficial to see how it goes here as well (see my other thread on the final playoff update in Ohio). Third, the 4-touchdown suggestion wasn't my own; that actually came to me from a head coach at a Knoxville-area public school shortly before I left East Tennessee three years ago. Of course, he didn't add in the other part about "not having an excuse". Thank you though, for pointing out the vacuousness of that particular statement; my only hope is that the coach (who was serious as a heart attack when he suggested it) can see the reaction on here. That said, yes, Ohio does have problems. Every state in the country has a problem of some sort as a it pertains to high school sports, but the primary issue that a governing body has to deal with is how to address them (if they can be addressed and overcome) without damaging the kids or the schools who the governing body is supposed to help. I believe that there are far too many of these bodies that have policies in place that do harm to the kids and the schools. Oregon, for example, has limits to how many kids can dress for a given game. That hurts younger players who now won't even have the chance to play in a blowout game, and prevents other kids from coming out to play football if they know going in that they can put in a full effort and practice well and still be stuck at home on Friday nights. Ohio's primary problem comes from inconsistent application of major rules, with a strange apparent bias against private schools. When Lakewood St Edward's had an ineligible player participate in four games (the transfer paperwork had been improperly filed), the punishment was handed down in midseason that those four games would be forfeited (this was in 2004). It put St Ed's in serious jeopardy of not making the playoffs; they ended up getting in as a 5-5 #8 seed (out of 8), then they went out and beat the #1 seed. That same year, Akron Buchtel (a public city school) had a player who not only was ineligible (I believe for academics), but also violated transfer rules. He played in all 10 games....and no punishment was doled out. The inconsistency shocked a lot of people, needless to say.

I have a better idea here. Throw out the multiplier, make all same-sized schools play each other.....but give the publics a 4-touchdown advantage to begin every game. That way if a public loses, they REALLY have no excuse.

Private schools have a significant disadvantage: they don't get a free education like you do in public schools. Since finances is usually the biggest reason that influences how someone lives their life, this is clearly the biggest obstacle to overcome and somehow the ones on the short end of it are the ones penalized. Here in Ohio, there's been two large Division 1 schools (no split, D-1 is the largest) who have suddenly risen to prominence and put numerous players into major D-1A NCAA football. Cleveland Glenville this year had NINE players come from elsewhere...and to give you an idea of the academics and environment, Glenville has one of the first schools in the state to have metal detectors. There were kids who left suburban public schools as well as St. Ed's (a football and wrestling power) and University School (a boarding school) to be run through security every day. Columbus Brookhaven won a D-2 state title in 2004, boasting about 5 senior starters who were elsewhere the previous year. They actually had 4 or 5 people report their flagrant recruiting to the OHSAA, and all were basically told to go fornicate themselves. I would support a full public/private split. I also would support the privates leaving the governing body to form their own, in which there are no rules to govern raiding top players from the public schools. And then, of course, I absolutely would support a year-end game between the public and private champion from a particular class. To respond to big_red_big_blue....if a high school coach goes through the motions for a year because there's no financial incentive to excel, I'd strongly recommend firing said coach and getting him away from high school kids entirely. That's exactly what's wrong with some coaches and some schools; how can you expect a coach to prepare high school kids for the future if all they see is that anything without a financial reward isn't worth doing? That's absolutely disgraceful; frankly, it's a shame that anyone would use that for a feeble (at best) excuse.

Final Ohio games have been played and championships have been decided. Just thought I'd give you the quick breakdown. Division 1 is the largest, 6 is the smallest. D-1 -- Cincinnati St. Xavier (private; ranked in the top 6 nationally by everyone) 24, Massillon (public) 17 D-2 -- Toledo Central Catholic (private) 31, Canfield (public) 29 D-3 -- Steubenville (public) 28, Columbus St Francis DeSales (private) 7 D-4 -- Coldwater (public) 33, Youngstown Cardinal Mooney (private) 9 D-5 -- Hamler Patrick Henry (public) 42, Cincinnati Hills Christian Academy (private) 30 D-6 -- Delphos St John's (private) 28, Steubenville Catholic Central (private) 0 The final tally then is Publics 3, Privates 3 (including one by default since both teams in D-6 were private). In Ohio, there are four regions per division, and the top 8 teams in each region make the playoffs. Here's the breakdown by number of private schools to make the playoffs in each division D-1 -- 5/32 (two left after the second round; the other three lost in the first round) D-2 -- 4/32 (three left after round 2) D-3 -- 6/32 (only one left after the second round) D-4 -- 6/32 (two left after the second round; they played each other in Round 3) D-5 -- 6/32 (only two left after the second round, and they played each other in round 3) D-6 -- 7/32 (four left after the second round) That total comes out to 34/192 total schools being private. Just thought you'd like to know how a non-split state's postseason bounced out.

That's the magic of Google, my friend. Someone I know asked me about a couple of ex-Vols so I started punching names in to see who I could find. Benson Scott (96-99), best known for being Jeff Hall's holder, is a resident doctor in Chattanooga (http://www.utcomchatt.org/Dept/famprac/famprac.asp?dpage=residents) I'd love to know whatever happened to DT Ron Green (95-98)...I have his 1998 white jersey.

Nah, I wish I was though. Not too much interest on the part of UT toward an offensive lineman who stands a stout 5'11" and weighed about 165 pounds at the end of his senior season. I am a former UT student though. Why do you ask?

In my experience, private schools have had to do more with much less than the public ones. I haven't been around Tennessee schools as much as Ohio ones, but I can assure you that in the Columbus (Ohio) area, the private schools have dilapidated buildings, extremely old materials, and not much to work with. The most successful of them, St Francis DeSales, has desks that go back to the time the school opened in 1960 that have never been replaced. The coaches don't draw salaries; the head coach is a teacher and administrator (yup, does both); all the assistants are volunteers only. As far as facilities go, only a mammoth fundraising effort involving alumni and community members has boosted those. The tuition hasn't increased to pay off anything at all. Compare that to area public schools, which looks like palaces in comparison. We're talking huge media centers and computer labs, fully equipped weight rooms and field houses, and stadiums that are actually stadiums instead of an off-level field with bleachers. The Dublin school district had over a million dollars in surplus cash a couple years ago, so they decided to tear out the grass and put in brand-new FieldTurf. Big Walnut (in a primarily rural area) completely renovated their high school, all the way down to having carpeted floors throughout the entire thing. Believe me when I say that Ohio public schools (outside the inner cities) are practically works of art, and the vast majority of private ones are nothing special at all. As far as who draws from where, aren't there open enrollment policies like there are here? I mean, I read the TSSAA handbook and from what I gather, kids can transfer to public schools without losing eligibility but transferring to a private school (regardless of reason) means a loss of a year. If a kid wants to go to learn football or wrestling and wants to drive 60 miles one way to do it, who can fault him?

Marcus Nash was originally picked up by Denver, then ended up with Baltimore. I know he won a Super Bowl ring with Baltimore, which was recently sold at auction for something like $12,000. As a longtime Cleveland Browns fan, I'd have done the same thing. Bill Duff (DT, 1994-97) finished up with the Columbus Destroyers of the Arena League last month. Spencer Riley (C/OG, 1995-98) was hired as offensive line coach at West Georgia. DeAngelo Lloyd (DE, I think 1996-99) was let go by the Columbus Destroyers in the preseason and I haven't heard from him since. Jonathan Brown (DE, 1994-97) plays with Ottawa of the CFL Tee Martin (QB, 1996-99) plays with Winnipeg of the CFL Jeremaine Copeland went to the XFL for a year, then signed on with Montreal of the CFL Can anyone fill me in on what the following players from the mid- to late-90s have been up to? Ron Green Billy Ratliff Jarvis Reado Mercedes Hamilton Jeff Coleman Corey Terry Jeff Hall John Finlayson Anthony Sessions Oh, and if you want to see something great, check this website out. http://community.webshots.com/user/rockytopreb/

Antwan, Sorry, got on a tangent and didn't answer the question. No, I didn't play and have not coached in the highest division. All of my playing (back in the day) and coaching has been either at the Division II or Division III level; however, our regular season schedule was regularly about one-half Division I schools. The interesting thing about location of schools in Ohio is also in how they draw up regions. As I mentioned in a prior post, they re-draw the region lines every year. But in order to keep as many people satisfied as possible, they basically gerrymander it as much as possible to have the most publics and the most private schools (since the regions lines vary widely from division to division). The end result is that in Division I (the biggest one), there are almost always two private and two public state semifinalists. Region 1 (Cleveland area) has all the major Cleveland powers (St. Ignatius, St. Edward's) and Region 4 (Cincinnati) has St. Xavier, Archbishop Moeller, and Elder. Of course, Colerain (a dominant public school) has come out of Region 4 two sraight years. Region 2 (Northeast Ohio and Toledo) and Region 3 (Columbus area) have a total of one private school between them. I think that setup does well to satisfy both public school supporters (who can see two state semifinal matchups with public schools no matter what), as well as private school supporters (most of whom would rather see a trip to the state semis have to go through a regional private school powerhouse at some point). If the OHSAA believes that there are too many private schools making it in (in a situation involving, say, all four state semifinal teams being private), they just redraw the lines the next year to try to balance it out that way.

Antwan, Believe me when I say I'd love to see one division for all, but that won't happen. I believe that if you're going to split up divisions (or classes) for the postseason, having separation by enrollment is the best way to do it. Like I said before, there's over 700 schools and 6 state championships (and the 6th one was added in, I believe, 1997). But I figure that if girls' volleyball has four state championships for a touch under 800 schools, maybe it's time to scale back in football as well. The paradox of private schools in Ohio is that Division 4 and below (the three smallest ones), the public schools (which are either county schools or otherwise draw from an extremely large area) have monstrous rosters while the private schools average between 25-35 kids. Division V powerhouse Amanda-Clearcreek (a public school) has 178 boys in their school enrollment for next year and will probably have an 80- or 90-man varsity roster. I'm somewhat familiar with the history of Tennessee's private schools; most of Ohio's were founded originally to address a particular need. Ohio obviously has a much larger Catholic population than Tennessee, which is why there are such a large number of Catholic schools (and an extremely small number of non-Catholic privates). Most of the large Division 1 powers in Ohio (Cleveland St. Ignatius with 1085 boys, Cincinnati St. X with 1111 boys, Cincinnati Moeller with 724 boys, etc) are all-boys schools. But the tide seems to be shifting a bit, with open enrollment schools (where students can transfer to anywhere in the district without losing eligibility) starting to really emerge and take over. Cleveland Glenville has brought in 9 players so far who were starting elsewhere last year (at some of the most prestigious academic schools in the country), and Columbus Brookhaven winning a state championship (the first Columbus public school to do so) with 5 senior starters who had started elsewhere the previous year. One of their assistants who I spoke to in the preseason basically told me that they were really-but-not-really recruiting kids from the other Columbus public schools to come play football at Brookhaven. Had a Columbus Catholic school done that (and none ever has, by the way), the outcry would so immense that it's probably that no one would play that school again. The problem with splitting divisions or classes up by any means is usually arbitrary. Some suggestions I've heard for further splitting in Ohio include: 1) By private and public 2) By private and open-enrollment public in one class, non-open enrollment public in the other 3) By public and non-financial aid private, financial aid private in the other 4) The same as #3 with the private classes switched 5) By enrollment numbers 6) (One of the stranger ones I've seen) By average roster size of the three prior years (which would involve a ridiculous amount of sneaky dealings, as coaches at large schools have 150-man JV squads and 35-man varsity squads to affect the numbers) 7) By coed and by all-boys 8) No split of any kind As I said, I'd like to see one single division with all 700+ schools scrapping like crazy to get in. The problems with that are obvious, so having a split of some kind is necessary. I do like the one by enrollment numbers; that way all schools are pretty much started off on similar footing. If one Division 3 school can muster up a roster of 102 boys (the way Columbus St Francis DeSales did three straight years) and no one else can put together more than 50, why punish the school for whom football seems to be a higher priority than girls' swimming?

Antwan, As I said in another post, one point I've always emphasized with my players is to take on all challenges and make no excuses. If you want to be the best, beat the best. Our primary goal as coaches, more so than wins and losses, is to train the future generation to lead America and continue the greatness of the country in all ways. I don't believe that having splits along all different lines accomplishes that goal.

I'll give an example from my personal life here. I am not black or of African descent. In fact, I am of Hungarian descent, meaning that I come from a long line of Magyar barbarians. The Magyars seized large chunks of central Europe in the 10th century AD, then settled down and became farmers. Their governments changed over the years, and only twice was it displaced by outside forces (by the Turks, and later when Austria annexed the country and created the empire of Austria-Hungary). In the aftermath of WWII, Josef Stalin's Red Army moved in and seized control, converting a proud independent nation into a satellite of the most evil regime in history. In 1956, Hungarian students rallied against Soviet intervention and were fired upon. This touched off a full-scale revolution against the Soviet occupiers. By the time it was all done, 9 members of my family (not immediate family; these are all cousins) had either been killed or deported to the gulags. I myself was not involved in that moment of history, but the mere sight of a hammer and sickle or a Hungarian flag with a red star is guaranteed to make my blood boil. Yes, I get fired up over a symbol; it symbolized the brutal oppression and rape of an independent people by those who would call themselves civilized. No, I don't believe for a second that the War of 1861 was fought over slavery, but more over an intricate network of complex economic matters and the right to self-determination and self-government. And I am well familiar with statements about the war (Ulysses S Grant saying that if he'd thought the war was over eliminating slavery, he would have resigned his commission and fought with the CSA). And the brutal violation of the Constitution that Abraham Lincoln and his noodle-spined followers began and encouraged created a federalist ripple effect still being felt today (only much greater in scope and magnitude). Right or wrong, historically accurate or not, the Confederate Naval Jack and Battle Flag are generally interpreted as being signs of anti-black racism. Clearly, this doesn't apply to all or even a majority of those with it, but the annexation of the flag by the KKK and other anti-black groups has only served to further tarnish the flag's image. For those of us who agree wholeheartedly with the cause that was fought for by the CSA in the War of 1861 who despise the racial implications that the flag has taken on, I encourage displaying a 3rd National Flag. That is one that has not been seized by racist groups, and as such shows solidarity with the politcal theory and shows no allegiance (one way or another) to any of the racial issues that have become so prominent.