Kentucky Split Debate heats up

[Antwan]

We do not get the pick of athletes in Louisville, or we'd have Douglas Beaumont, KJ Black, Tim Horton and a few others at either St. X or Trinity. We'd have had Earl Heyman (now @ the University of Louisville), Keenan Burton (Now at University of Kentucky) or Michael Bush (University of Louisville)....The last DI player was Brian Brohm....I'm hard pressed to remember any others, except DeQuese May who's at Villanova now.

 

Exactly what is the point of the Publics "allowing" the play in the regular season and not in the post-season? Is it to capitalize on the gate receipts? If the "playing field" is not level with us in the post-season, how is it any more even during the regular season?

 

You are referring to a lot of large publics in Louisville. T and X are only two schools.

No one school is going to have a load of DI athletes every year.

[rockmom]

that definitely answers a lot of my questions. I would infer Nashville is a much different place in terms of demogrpahics by faith. In a similar sized city, there are (someone correct me if I'm wrong) three private Catholic schools in the greater Nashville area: Father Ryan HS (co-ed, close to 100 years old, with about 1000 students) St. Cecilia (all girls) and John Paul II (only about 5 years old, co-ed--630 students and in Hendersonville). Not sure about JPII, but I'd guess FRHS and St. C are both around 95% Catholic also.

 

What is the rest of the private school landscape like in Louisville? Are there other, similarly-sized non-Catholic schools?

 

 

I'll list as many as I can remember and a little about each:

 

St. X-All Boys, about 1300 students-151 years old

Trinity-All Boys, about 1300 students-53 years old

Assumption HS-All Girls-About 952 students-50 years old

Sacred Heart Academy-All Girls-About 751 students-128 years old

Mercy Academy-All Girls School-About-402 students-133 years old

Presentation Academy-All Girls School-About-373--174 years old

DeSales High School-All Boys-about 332-49 years Old

Holy Cross High School-Co-ed-about 339-about 20 or so years old, formed by merging the old Bishop David boys school and the Angela Merici girls school.

 

Other schools:

 

Academy For Individual Excelle 473 Co-ed PK-12

Beth Haven Christian School 264 Co-ed KG-12

Chr Academy Of Louisville High School 499 Co-ed 9-12

Evangel Christian School 444 Co-ed KG-12

Families For Christ Chr Academy 18 Co-ed 1-12

Highview Baptist School 824 Co-ed PK-12

Kentucky Country Day School 804 Co-ed KG-12

Landmark Christian Academy 155 Co-ed PK-12

Louisville Collegiate School 648 Co-ed KG-12

Portland Christian School 295 Co-ed KG-12

St. Francis High School 132 Co-ed 9-12

Victory Christian Academy 347 Co-ed PK-12

Walden School Corporation 254 Co-ed KG-12

 

 

 

These are just the schools that affect High School years. There is an extensive list of Catholic Grade schools and Christian grade schools as well.

[rockmom]

I must make the distinction between aid and non-aid schools. I am sure you are aware of our DI and DII privates. DII privates are financial aid. DI privates are not.

DII privates (MBA...BA etc.) are in their own division. I am sure you know that.

DI privates are multiplied by 1.8. They are non-aid. Knoxville Catholic and Chattanooga Notre Dame (obviously Catholic) are in that category. I was told by Knox Catholic fans...that their Catholic student population is less than 25 %.

 

Most privates do not travel well. It is not for the gate receipts. I would think it is more for competition and...most of the time...close proximity. The only drawback is that the 1st tie-breaker is over all record. Some DI teams will play them. Some will not. Otherwise...it has no bearing on the playoffs.

 

It is not that publics "allow" the interplay. Privates have to schedule the games too. Most larger publics will not play the DII teams. A lot of smaller publics will play DI privates. At least ...it happens more often.

 

 

I guess you're not as familiar with the private schools in Louisville as you may have thought. Trinity and St. X travel extremely well, ask MBA, Cincy Elder, or any other out of state, or out of county team we've played. Except for Manual & Male, in Louisville when X or Trinity plays a local team away, we bring more fans than the home team. It's a fact, and not one I'm bragging about, it's just simply way it is.

 

Private schools already exist under a 2.1 multiplier here in Kentucky. So, looking at the KHSAA enrollment numbers, we show as having an enrollment of ~2600, when in fact, we have ~1300.

 

I read the entire Proposal 20, as well as the other proposals put to vote in October. The exact language was to "allow" the interplay. So, my question is, and was....exactly what is to be gained by this for the public schools?

[big red big blue]

I can tell you how it happened with us: the metro Nashville schools (with whom MBA and FRHS had played for decades) voted as a group against the split proposal for, among other things, one reason you mentioned: that those two schools were consistently their largest gates of the year. Plus, there really wasn't a history of one-sidedness either, and not much reason for bitterness. The concept was presented as "everyone will play everyone in the regular season; post-seasons will be separate." We played a small number of games against our traditional public rivals before they dropped us from their schedules. Now, no public schools in Tennessee will schedule us. MBA's schedule had no Tennessee public schools on it. It has been suggested by many that there is an unspoken rule among Nashville schools that none will play any of the local private schools. So now, we play basically a college football type schedule with games all over the state and beyond. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened to you and X if a split like TN's happens in KY.

 

I will point out that in TN, prior to the split, only 4 financial aid-receiving students could dress out for varsity football. So we already had at least some rules in place. But our multiplier happened after the split.

[Antwan]

I guess you're not as familiar with the private schools in Louisville as you may have thought. Trinity and St. X travel extremely well, ask MBA, Cincy Elder, or any other out of state, or out of county team we've played. Except for Manual & Male, in Louisville when X or Trinity plays a local team away, we bring more fans than the home team. It's a fact, and not one I'm bragging about, it's just simply way it is.

 

Private schools already exist under a 2.1 multiplier here in Kentucky. So, looking at the KHSAA enrollment numbers, we show as having an enrollment of ~2600, when in fact, we have ~1300.

 

I read the entire Proposal 20, as well as the other proposals put to vote in October. The exact language was to "allow" the interplay. So, my question is, and was....exactly what is to be gained by this for the public schools?

 

I wasn't talking about Ky. private schools traveling well. I was talking about Tn. private schools not traveling well. There are a few exceptions. They are mostly small schools. They just don't have the fan base.

 

You don't have a multiplier. You are doubled because you are an all boys school. MBA is the same here. All boys and all girls schools are doubled here too.

 

I have already answered why interplay is allowed. Go back and read that post.

[rockmom]

I can tell you how it happened with us: the metro Nashville schools (with whom MBA and FRHS had played for decades) voted as a group against the split proposal for, among other things, one reason you mentioned: that those two schools were consistently their largest gates of the year. Plus, there really wasn't a history of one-sidedness either, and not much reason for bitterness. The concept was presented as "everyone will play everyone in the regular season; post-seasons will be separate." We played a small number of games against our traditional public rivals before they dropped us from their schedules. Now, no public schools in Tennessee will schedule us. MBA's schedule had no Tennessee public schools on it. It has been suggested by many that there is an unspoken rule among Nashville schools that none will play any of the local private schools. So now, we play basically a college football type schedule with games all over the state and beyond. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened to you and X if a split like TN's happens in KY.

 

I will point out that in TN, prior to the split, only 4 financial aid-receiving students could dress out for varsity football. So we already had at least some rules in place. But our multiplier happened after the split.

 

 

The multiplier's been in place for a long time in Kentucky...but I'm not sure how long. I'll have to research that. Trinity already faces what we refer to as a public school "boycott". None of the public schools in our district will play us at the Frosh or JV level. They do play us at the varsity level, but only because it will affect their playing in the post-season. We realize exactly what will happen if Prop 20 passes. Manual is the only Jefferson County public school on our pre-season schedule. We scrimmage Scott County every year, but on their condition that we travel to their site to play...they do not come to Louisville.

 

To be honest, I have no idea how the financial aid restriction would hurt us. I don't have any idea how many of our athletes receive financial aid. Frankly, it's not my business, I feel. The KHSAA stipulated that an outside agency determine financial aid, and we've met that. The KHSAA instituted a multiplier, and we've dealt with that. We've undergone audits, and we've been determined to be in compliance with the KHSAA rules. I know that LexCath was found to have violated some rules regarding financial aid and are facing sanctions. I'm not sure of the details of either the violation or sanctions, but I'll try to research that as well.

 

I will say that if 40% of our ~1300 students recieve financial aid, that means ~520 STUDENTS receive aid, thus making the liklihood of that athletes are more than one of those students a good possibility.

[rockmom]

I wasn't talking about Ky. private schools traveling well. I was talking about Tn. private schools not traveling well. There are a few exceptions. They are mostly small schools. They just don't have the fan base.

 

You don't have a multiplier. You are doubled because you are an all boys school. MBA is the same here. All boys and all girls schools are doubled here too.

 

I have already answered why interplay is allowed. Go back and read that post.

 

 

I'm not asking why it's allowed, I'm asking what benefit it is to the public schools to play the privates. In Trinity's district, we're the only private school on the schedule. The same with X's district. I'm sure another out of district public school could be scheduled for that one game for the public schools. So, what's the benefit to the public school for playing Trinity or X?

 

So, doubling the enrollment is not a multiplier....what, then exactly, IS the multiplier?

[silverpie]

I'm not asking why it's allowed, I'm asking what benefit it is to the public schools to play the privates. In Trinity's district, we're the only private school on the schedule. The same with X's district. I'm sure another out of district public school could be scheduled for that one game for the public schools. So, what's the benefit to the public school for playing Trinity or X?

 

So, doubling the enrollment is not a multiplier....what, then exactly, IS the multiplier?

 

In Tennessee, all Division I private schools' enrollments are multiplied by 1.8; if it were all-male or all-female, it would be doubled on top of that (but all of the single-sex schools are in fact Division II). However, that 1.8 cannot put a school two classes above where its un-multiplied enrollment would fall (this comes into play in only two cases, the football classifications of Notre Dame and Goodpasture). The all-male schools are doubled in Division II also; since only football has been allowed even two D-II classes, that double's only effect on the all-girls schools is to increase the membership fees of all of them except I-C.

[rockmom]

In Tennessee, all Division I private schools' enrollments are multiplied by 1.8; if it were all-male or all-female, it would be doubled on top of that (but all of the single-sex schools are in fact Division II). However, that 1.8 cannot put a school two classes above where its un-multiplied enrollment would fall (this comes into play in only two cases, the football classifications of Notre Dame and Goodpasture). The all-male schools are doubled in Division II also; since only football has been allowed even two D-II classes, that double's only effect on the all-girls schools is to increase the membership fees of all of them except I-C.

 

 

So, by doubling our enrollment already, there essentially isn't any room to add a multiplier, if I understand what you've posted correctly. Not to mention, doing so would only affect 2 of the private schools, as far as pushing them into higher classes (for classified sports)...Trinity and X. The rest of the private schools are small enough to essentially be able to absorb an additional multiplier while possibly moving only one class.

Edited December 5, 2005 by rockmom

[big red big blue]

The multiplier's been in place for a long time in Kentucky...but I'm not sure how long. I'll have to research that. Trinity already faces what we refer to as a public school "boycott". None of the public schools in our district will play us at the Frosh or JV level. They do play us at the varsity level, but only because it will affect their playing in the post-season. We realize exactly what will happen if Prop 20 passes. Manual is the only Jefferson County public school on our pre-season schedule. We scrimmage Scott County every year, but on their condition that we travel to their site to play...they do not come to Louisville.

 

To be honest, I have no idea how the financial aid restriction would hurt us. I don't have any idea how many of our athletes receive financial aid. Frankly, it's not my business, I feel. The KHSAA stipulated that an outside agency determine financial aid, and we've met that. The KHSAA instituted a multiplier, and we've dealt with that. We've undergone audits, and we've been determined to be in compliance with the KHSAA rules. I know that LexCath was found to have violated some rules regarding financial aid and are facing sanctions. I'm not sure of the details of either the violation or sanctions, but I'll try to research that as well.

 

I will say that if 40% of our ~1300 students recieve financial aid, that means ~520 STUDENTS receive aid, thus making the liklihood of that athletes are more than one of those students a good possibility.

 

Personally, I think they latched on to the financial aid issue in our case because they knew how impractical it would be for us to eliminate it. There are all sorts of bad implications one can draw from the idea that the public schools will play private schools, provided they are made up exclusively of rich kids. MBA's student body #'s for financial aid (and I would assume BA's also) are likewise around 30% and administered by a 3rd party. there is no way to just cut those kids off or say "no one receiving financial aid can play sports." At the original proposal, they couldn't throw out the idea of a multiplier because the schools that were targeted were already playing with a de facto multiplier.

[rockmom]

Personally, I think they latched on to the financial aid issue in our case because they knew how impractical it would be for us to eliminate it. There are all sorts of bad implications one can draw from the idea that the public schools will play private schools, provided they are made up exclusively of rich kids. MBA's student body #'s for financial aid (and I would assume BA's also) are likewise around 30% and administered by a 3rd party. there is no way to just cut those kids off or say "no one receiving financial aid can play sports." At the original proposal, they couldn't throw out the idea of a multiplier because the schools that were targeted were already playing with a de facto multiplier.

 

 

I find it interesting in Kentucky, that several proposals were presented in addition to Prop 20, that addressed individual issues of concern:

 

1) Setting boundaries from which the private schools can draw kids. The proposal was 20 miles. A kid outside the 20 miles would have to sit out the first year at the school.

 

2) Out-of-State students. This affected the border schools overall, and not primarily the private schools. But, there seems to be a side-issue with private schools in Louisville allowing Southern Indiana students into their schools and onto their sports teams. Apparently, it's actually a much bigger issue for publics on some of the borders, but it still would have addressed one bone of contention.

 

These two proposals were skipped over and Prop20 voted upon first. I find that both interesting and telling of the willingness of the public schools to REALLY work toward a compromise that allows the private schools to compete in the same system.

[silverpie]

A Tennessee-style multiplier would move CovCath, LexCath, Owensboro Catholic, and DeSales to AAAA in football. Louisville Christian would be jumped to AAA but for the one-step rule, so they would instead end up in AA along with both Holy Crosses, NCC, and Lexington Christian. The only private A school would be Country Day.