State Tournament Stats

[texas23]

Tex, I agree they did prepare well for all of their match ups in this tournament including Travis Creagan's match. Very impressive.

 

I heard you were looking for me, but once again, we don't hook up.

 

adsom@bellsouth.net

 

 

you were there?

[walkenvol]

I mentioned 152 and 189, Jakesdad also pointed out 160 which was an interesting weight class. I would submit that both Hamm and R. Bray were a little surprised with the outcome in a few of those weight classes. Is Tolbert one of those that may have been left out because of being a young-developing sophomore with lack luster perfomance during the regular season? Would J. Young been in a different seeding considering his undefeated record? You really don't know how the match up will be until that given match, i.e., Will Young's pay back and Doster's as well.

Sorry Soms, but you still didn't address the issue of why should one qualify based on their geography. I don't think your examples were of wrestlers who qualified from the single placing regions without being a region champ? The Southern Conf champ still has the same opportunity to win the NCAA's as the 4th place finisher from the Big 10. 5 or 6 years back a Great Bridge VA wrestler at Illinois finished 4th in the conf and won the NCAA's - the conf was that tough as I believe 1-3 also AA'ed. Now if a region can only produce 1 place finisher from 42+ wrestlers, one has to question if there are not more deserving wrestlers finishing 4th to 6th in another region who should be at the state.

[Sommers]

Sorry Soms, but you still didn't address the issue of why should one qualify based on their geography. I don't think your examples were of wrestlers who qualified from the single placing regions without being a region champ? The Southern Conf champ still has the same opportunity to win the NCAA's as the 4th place finisher from the Big 10. 5 or 6 years back a Great Bridge VA wrestler at Illinois finished 4th in the conf and won the NCAA's - the conf was that tough as I believe 1-3 also AA'ed. Now if a region can only produce 1 place finisher from 42+ wrestlers, one has to question if there are not more deserving wrestlers finishing 4th to 6th in another region who should be at the state.

Vol, all I'm attempting to say is that HS level wrestling is like predicting whether it's Doctor Jaeckel or Mr. Hyde showing up at that tournament. Give these kids a chance to prove themselves at the big dance. State qualifiers should have some weight in seeding, medalists more, head-to-head and rankings a part of the criteria as well. Oh, and region placements with the extra 4th place going to the strongest region(s).

 

Allowing for weaker regions over a certain geography to knock themselves off in pig tails may work and then after going up against the tougher region champs and top seeds. If they're good enough they can medal in the double eliminations. It all comes out in the wash, if the brackets are done properly and it's not a carry tournament.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Sommers

[Sommers]

you were there?

[2@140]

Follow your man definately needs to go. There is time to make it double elimination. Or, if your trying to help with geographic equity, expand it to a 48 man tourney and get rid of the silliness like 2 no one seeds getting it on it the second round.

Edited February 21, 2006 by 2@140

[jakesdad]

I am not so sure that the excellent wrestler from Reb Bank did not belong in the finals. He and his coaches had a strategy and were very close to pulling off a big surprise. Had Creagan not been wrestling so well as to take advantage of the opportunity that was presented, it may have been a different story. Both of those wreslters belonged in that final.

Just my opinion.

 

Seems to me that the two best wrestlers in a weight class 'belong' in the finals. Young beat Tolbert twice in the last month, hence, there is room for improvement in the seeding process for the tournament. If you meant, the two guys in that final made for the best match at 160 because of the extraordinary strategy (and execution) by Tolbert, then I take no exception.

[2@140]

Jakesdad,

 

Your son had an incredible year and is truly an unbelievable freshman. He fears no one and gets after it. He will be a pleasure to follow the next three years.Congratulations to him and his coaches for accomplishing 3rd in a tough field.

 

The draw does leave something to be desired for sure. In my oldest sons freshman year two of the top 3 wrestlers in the state were in region 4. The second place Region 4 was the 3rd ranked kid in the state. He had gotten beat in the region by the eventual state champ. My son drew the third ranked guy for his first match. Since that guy had not won his region he was a draw and ended up wrestling the no 2 guy who finished 2nd in the state thate year in his next match. My son was eliminated in the follow your man format and third place and fifth place finishers in that weight class were kids he had majored during the season. Mikey Fuller experienced a similar draw this year.

 

Once again congratulations to Jake on a tremedous season.

Edited February 21, 2006 by 2@140

[texas23]

Seems to me that the two best wrestlers in a weight class 'belong' in the finals. Young beat Tolbert twice in the last month, hence, there is room for improvement in the seeding process for the tournament. If you meant, the two guys in that final made for the best match at 160 because of the extraordinary strategy (and execution) by Tolbert, then I take no exception.

 

 

Understanding the person I am talking to, please do not take offense to the following.

 

I thought the best match was going to be in the semi-finals. while it was a good match, it was never in doubt as to who was going to win that one. I stood next two two really nice guys who were all for the Ooltewah guy. They could not have been any better fans and they commented on how proud they were of their guy and how impressive the Bradely wrestler was in handing him his first loss.

 

I thought the final was not going to be worth watching, based on the way this young man was dispatched in the semi.

 

I was wrong. Tolbert came ready to make a better showing than he had done the last time he had met Creagan. In my opinion, he gave Creagan a fight that no one expected. The match was in some doubt of the outcome, deep into the second period.

 

this was a very exciting match and worthy of a finals. Much better than the semi, which I thought was going to be for the championship of the 160 class.

[jakesdad]

No offense taken to that post Tex. In fact, I read your post twice, and I think you said the same thing in 12 sentences that I said in the final one sentence of my previous post - Creagan's final's match was better (closer) than his semi's match. My issue is with respect to seeding. I am new to the state tournament as a fan, so I don't know if the seeding goal should be to produce the most exciting match ups in the finals or to produce an objective ranking of wrestlers by place finish. I expected the latter, and I sense that you want the former. Ideally, seeding would produce both. But with such limited critera leading to random placement of the masses, we have no asssurance of either.

[texas23]

No offense taken to that post Tex. In fact, I read your post twice, and I think you said the same thing in 12 sentences that I said in the final one sentence of my previous post - Creagan's final's match was better (closer) than his semi's match. My issue is with respect to seeding. I am new to the state tournament as a fan, so I don't know if the seeding goal should be to produce the most exciting match ups in the finals or to produce an objective ranking of wrestlers by place finish. I expected the latter, and I sense that you want the former. Ideally, seeding would produce both. But with such limited critera leading to random placement of the masses, we have no asssurance of either.

 

 

I mean the guy deserved to be there because he can wrestle AND his coaches put together a good plan to beat a State Champ. I may be reading between the lines of your one sentence, but I think I detect a sense that you believe Tolbert did not belong there. I could be wrong, and if so, I am sorry.

 

I bet the next time around for Jake would be different too. Those are a bunch of really good coaches the owls have. And that kid is great too. I look forward to seeing him again next year. Good luck.

[walkenvol]

I mean the guy deserved to be there because he can wrestle AND his coaches put together a good plan to beat a State Champ.

Tex - I challenge you to rethink your position on this one. If I recall correctly, you were one of the many who claimed an injustice when Soddy and Bradley were placed on the same side of the bracket at the state duals? In that case (and I agree) the 2 teams who had proven themselves to be the class of the field throughout the season should have had the opportunity to meet in the finals. Although Clarksville wrestled an exciting and competitive match in the finals, they should have had to defeat Soddy to earn that opportunity. In some of the D1 weights due to the lack of a reasonable seeding system, the wrestler who should have earned the 2nd or 3rd seed based on the results of the season ended up on the same side of the bracket with the top seed. In the 160 weight, based on the results of the season and the prior weekend, Jake Young should have been the 3rd seed with Tolbert either the 4th or 5th seed. While both of these young men had great tourneys and seasons, Young's season should have earned him the right to wrestle for an opportunity to face Creagan in the finals. Certainly no guarantee he would have been there as he had not seen Pease and might not have been as successful against him as Tolbert. Tolbert had a wonderful showing in the finals and may well be the cream of the crop next season, but one has to question the logic of the current seeding when the only criteria is how a wrestler placed in a single tourney the prior season. I think Tee Boone's season results were also deserving of a 3rd seed.

[texas23]

Tex - I challenge you to rethink your position on this one. If I recall correctly, you were one of the many who claimed an injustice when Soddy and Bradley were placed on the same side of the bracket at the state duals? In that case (and I agree) the 2 teams who had proven themselves to be the class of the field throughout the season should have had the opportunity to meet in the finals. Although Clarksville wrestled an exciting and competitive match in the finals, they should have had to defeat Soddy to earn that opportunity. In some of the D1 weights due to the lack of a reasonable seeding system, the wrestler who should have earned the 2nd or 3rd seed based on the results of the season ended up on the same side of the bracket with the top seed. In the 160 weight, based on the results of the season and the prior weekend, Jake Young should have been the 3rd seed with Tolbert either the 4th or 5th seed. While both of these young men had great tourneys and seasons, Young's season should have earned him the right to wrestle for an opportunity to face Creagan in the finals. Certainly no guarantee he would have been there as he had not seen Pease and might not have been as successful against him as Tolbert. Tolbert had a wonderful showing in the finals and may well be the cream of the crop next season, but one has to question the logic of the current seeding when the only criteria is how a wrestler placed in a single tourney the prior season. I think Tee Boone's season results were also deserving of a 3rd seed.

 

I have not even begun to discuss the seeding arrangements of the bracket in the traditonal tourney. My comments were about the validity of the actucal two wrestlers who made the finals. My response was about Tolbert's performance against the eventual champion and Young's performance versus the same guy. On this particular weekend, it seems to me (based on the way those two matches were wrestled) that Tolbert had the better chance of beating Creagan.

 

I do agree, based on the regional performance and Young beating Tolbert the previous weekend, it would make some sense to see Young on the other side of the bracket. But that is not how it happened and Tolbert made a case (based on his performace) that he may have been seeded correctly (Monday morning QB stuff for sure).

 

I think the 125 bracket was loaded in a strange way as well.