Reffing

[bigwes68]

Oh jeez. Here we go again.

 

For at least the 6,478th time, I will say this: If you don't like the officiating and think you can do better, GET OUT THERE AND DO IT. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut!

 

But you know what? All you whiners and complainers won't do it because you know you couldn't do any better. You know that you'd crack under the pressure of having upwards of 2,000 people critique your every move for 3 hours a night, 2-3 nights a week. Like the old adage says, officiating is the only profession in which you're expected to be perfect on your first day and improve every day after that.

 

It's people like you complainers, who sit in the stands and yell at officials all night and then get on the message boards and dog them some more, that are keeping new people from getting into officiating. Eventually, you're not going to have enough officials to cover all the games. They are already running into this problem in Florida with football -- many schools down there are being forced to play on Wednesday or Thursday night just so there are enough officials to cover the games.

 

Guess what? If there aren't any officials, there aren't any games. PERIOD. And it's all the idiots that don't know the rules, don't know what officials go through and don't seem to understand officiating at all that are making people who could be good officials not get into the profession. And that just hurts the game that much worse.

[www.schoolsportsradio.com]

At a lot of the games we broadcast I'll have refs ask me if the games will be up for on demand viewing or if I can send them a video of the game. From where we're shooting the game looks a lot different than on the floor. That's the reason I don't get too bent out of shape if a call looks bad to me.

[dick vitale]

QUOTE(BBallFan31 @ Feb 23 2007 - 02:37 PM) 826386075[/snapback]I'm not saying that it has all been bad, just in the past 2 weeks. During the season it was fine. I know that these guys aren't perfect and a missed calls happen at the highest level, it just seems that the basic calls like a charge or a walk aren't getting called. Sorry if I offended any refs on here.

 

 

bbfallfan31,

would you please quote the rules for these two infractions. I would like to see some in depth knowledge from you.

[dontknowmuch]

QUOTE(dick vitale @ Feb 24 2007 - 01:39 AM) 826386948[/snapback]bbfallfan31,

would you please quote the rules for these two infractions. I would like to see some in depth knowledge from you.

 

 

Ouoted from the NCAA 2006 basketball rule book (since the high school rules are not avaiable in electronic form)

 

 

"Section 21. By Dribbler

Art. 1. A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in the

dribbler’s path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between

an opponent and a boundary, unless the space is sufficient to provide a reasonable

chance for the dribbler to pass through without contact.

Art. 2. When a dribbler, without contact, passes an opponent sufficiently to

have head and shoulders beyond the front of the opponent’s torso, the

greater responsibility for subsequent contact shall be that of the opponent.

Art. 3. When a dribbler has obtained a straight-line path, the dribbler may

not be crowded out of that path; when an opponent is able to legally obtain

a defensive position in that path, the dribbler shall avoid contact by changing

direction or ending the dribble.

A.R. 20. A player who is guarding moves into the path of a dribbler and contact

occurs. RULING: Either player may be responsible, but the greater responsibility

shall be that of the dribbler when the player who is guarding conforms to the following

principles that officials shall use in reaching a decision. The defensive player

shall be assumed to have attained a guarding position when the defensive player is

in the dribbler’s path facing him or her. When the defensive player jumps into position,

both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he or she can have

attained a guarding position. No specific stance or distance shall be required. The

guard may shift to maintain his or her position in the path of the dribbler, provided

that the player who is guarding does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause

contact as outlined in this section. The responsibility of the dribbler for contact shall

not shift merely because the player who is guarding turns or ducks to absorb shock

when contact caused by the dribbler is imminent. The player who is guarding shall

not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower after the passer

or thrower is in the air with his or her feet off the floor.

Art. 4. The player intending to become the dribbler shall not be permitted

additional rights to start a dribble or in executing a jump try for goal, pivot

or feint."

 

 

Now that that execise is done, can anyone quote the rules for a jump stop and "palming"? I apparently don't understand those rules well. I see what I believe are violations of both routinely in both high school and college ball.

[BBallFan31]

An additional point: I have seen too many "cheap shots" this year, and the refs don't throw these kids out. It's one thing if it happens once, but when the same kids do it and they don't get thrown out, that's ridiculous.. Also, about the charge, I've seen it too many times this year too where a kid gets a lob pass into the post he barely has time to turn around and a kid flops and they call a charge. If I'm not mistaken, a player is allowed a step if the kids comes from a "blind spot". That is the rule right? I'm sick of seeing some of these guys out here that don't look like they want to be out there. If you don't like it, don't do it. It's that simple. Then when a game is called poorly, no one gets repremanded for making bad calls. They can b reffing the next day.

[dick vitale]

QUOTE(BBallFan31 @ Feb 24 2007 - 11:05 AM) 826387116[/snapback]An additional point: I have seen too many "cheap shots" this year, and the refs don't throw these kids out. It's one thing if it happens once, but when the same kids do it and they don't get thrown out, that's ridiculous.. Also, about the charge, I've seen it too many times this year too where a kid gets a lob pass into the post he barely has time to turn around and a kid flops and they call a charge. If I'm not mistaken, a player is allowed a step if the kids comes from a "blind spot". That is the rule right? I'm sick of seeing some of these guys out here that don't look like they want to be out there. If you don't like it, don't do it. It's that simple. Then when a game is called poorly, no one gets repremanded for making bad calls. They can b reffing the next day.

 

 

 

If you wanna fix things, then you should apply to TSSAA and put the stripes on. Do on of two things, get your stripes on and get on the court or quit crying over calls. IT'S THAT SIMPLE..............

[P.A.Lin-Z]

QUOTE(dick vitale @ Feb 24 2007 - 10:26 AM) 826387128[/snapback]If you wanna fix things, then you should apply to TSSAA and put the stripes on. Do on of two things, get your stripes on and get on the court or quit crying over calls. IT'S THAT SIMPLE..............

 

I still maintain that when refs start allowing to much contact....it's hard to control from that point on. Another thing is.....some teams play at such a fast pace....a ref has to see it, make a decision on what to call in his mind, and then vocalize the call. There's not much time.....to do that. I watched two guys on the court last week that was simple guilty of watching the game....there was traveling, out of bounds, lane violations, and all kinds of things missed. When the crowd....that saw it yelled a little they reeled themselves back in and called the game. And I don't care what you say....some refs have their own agenda, they get caught up in it. Some are not in good condition to be running with a fast pace team and will slow it down.

They say that games can't be lost by a ref....but it can. From the opening buzzer....at any given time he can start working on any player he wants to get them into foul trouble.....and it changes the way the game is played.

My sympathy goes out to all refs.

 

Have you ever see that guy come in and everybody says, "Awwwww craaaaap"?

[byrd62]

QUOTE(Red81KPsmash @ Feb 23 2007 - 01:42 PM) 826385990[/snapback]While no one can or will be perfect, I have watched games all over Knoxville this year and must agree. The refs are getting worse every year. THe problem is that there is absolutely no accountability or attempts to get better. A guy can totally screw up a game on Tuesday and be calling another game Wednesday. At least in the college and pro games there are reprecussions for poor performance. I know people (mostly other officials) get on here and defend the officials by saying there are not enough for games, but this is wrong. It is really bad in basketball, and other sports are catching up quickly. The TSSAA needs to do something to address these problems soon.

 

Iagree completly

[BigOwl]

QUOTE(BBallFan31 @ Feb 24 2007 - 11:05 AM) 826387116[/snapback]An additional point: I have seen too many "cheap shots" this year, and the refs don't throw these kids out. It's one thing if it happens once, but when the same kids do it and they don't get thrown out, that's ridiculous.. Also, about the charge, I've seen it too many times this year too where a kid gets a lob pass into the post he barely has time to turn around and a kid flops and they call a charge. If I'm not mistaken, a player is allowed a step if the kids comes from a "blind spot". That is the rule right? I'm sick of seeing some of these guys out here that don't look like they want to be out there. If you don't like it, don't do it. It's that simple. Then when a game is called poorly, no one gets repremanded for making bad calls. They can b reffing the next day.

 

 

You are not correct on the rule. What you may thinking about is if a player is in the air then he must be allowed to come down without contact. The play you are talking about here there is no time and distance on a player with the ball. So if the player receives the ball comes down and then runs over a player then player control is the right call. He is not required to give the player a step.

[dontknowmuch]

QUOTE(BigOwl @ Feb 24 2007 - 12:16 PM) 826387168[/snapback]You are not correct on the rule. What you may thinking about is if a player is in the air then he must be allowed to come down without contact. The play you are talking about here there is no time and distance on a player with the ball. So if the player receives the ball comes down and then runs over a player then player control is the right call. He is not required to give the player a step.

 

 

I think that he is correct on the rule. From the NCAA rule book:

 

Section 22. By Screener

Art. 1. A player shall not cause contact by setting a screen outside the

visual field of a stationary opponent that does not allow this opponent a

normal step to move.

Art. 2. A screener shall not make contact with the opponent when setting

a screen within the visual field of that opponent.

Art. 3. A screener shall not take a position so close to a moving opponent

that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing direction.

A.R. 21. B1 maneuvers to a position in front of offensive post player A1 to prevent A1

from receiving the ball. A high pass is made out of the reach of B1. The offensive post

player A1 moves toward the basket to catch the pass and try for goal. As the pass is

made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action

involves a screening principle. B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have

the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in

advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)

to make the action legal. When A1 has control of the ball (provided that the offensive

post player A1 is not in the air at the time), the play shall become a guarding situation.

When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance

shall be irrelevant.

Art. 4. No player, while moving, shall set a screen that causes contact or

delays an opponent from reaching a desired position.

Art. 5. When both opponents are moving in exactly the same path and

direction and the screener slows down or stops and contact results, the

trailing player shall be responsible for such contact.

Art. 6. No player shall use arm(s), hand(s), hip(s) or shoulder(s) to force

through a screen or to hold or push the screener.

Art. 7. Screeners shall not line up next to each other within 6 feet of a

boundary line and parallel to it so that contact occurs.

a. Screeners shall be permitted to line up parallel to a boundary line and

next to each other without locking arms or grasping each other, provided

that the screen is set at least 6 feet from that boundary line.

[BigOwl]

QUOTE(dontknowmuch @ Feb 24 2007 - 01:12 PM) 826387207[/snapback]I think that he is correct on the rule. From the NCAA rule book:

 

Section 22. By Screener

Art. 1. A player shall not cause contact by setting a screen outside the

visual field of a stationary opponent that does not allow this opponent a

normal step to move.

Art. 2. A screener shall not make contact with the opponent when setting

a screen within the visual field of that opponent.

Art. 3. A screener shall not take a position so close to a moving opponent

that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing direction.

A.R. 21. B1 maneuvers to a position in front of offensive post player A1 to prevent A1

from receiving the ball. A high pass is made out of the reach of B1. The offensive post

player A1 moves toward the basket to catch the pass and try for goal. As the pass is

made, B2 moves into the path of A1, in a guarding position. RULING: This action

involves a screening principle. B2 has switched to guard a player who does not have

the ball; therefore, the switching player shall assume a position one or two strides in

advance of offensive post player A1 (depending upon the speed of movement of A1)

to make the action legal. Art. 4. No player, while moving, shall set a screen that causes contact or

delays an opponent from reaching a desired position.

Art. 5. When both opponents are moving in exactly the same path and

direction and the screener slows down or stops and contact results, the

trailing player shall be responsible for such contact.

Art. 6. No player shall use arm(s), hand(s), hip(s) or shoulder(s) to force

through a screen or to hold or push the screener.

Art. 7. Screeners shall not line up next to each other within 6 feet of a

boundary line and parallel to it so that contact occurs.

a. Screeners shall be permitted to line up parallel to a boundary line and

next to each other without locking arms or grasping each other, provided

that the screen is set at least 6 feet from that boundary line.

 

 

From my reading of his post he is not talking about a screener he is talking about a lob pass to player. The rule is different for a player with the ball as to someone who doesn't have the ball. The case he listed doesn't go by the screening rule because he had the ball then it is guarding. This is the part of the rule dealing with guarding from your post above.

 

When A1 has control of the ball (provided that the offensive

post player A1 is not in the air at the time), the play shall become a guarding situation.

When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance

shall be irrelevant.

 

 

You have quoted the screening rule which is correct if you set a screen outside the visual field of someone you have to give them one step to stop or change direction on a stationary opponent.

[dontknowmuch]

QUOTE(BigOwl @ Feb 24 2007 - 03:22 PM) 826387322[/snapback]From my reading of his post he is not talking about a screener he is talking about a lob pass to player. The rule is different for a player with the ball as to someone who doesn't have the ball. The case he listed doesn't go by the screening rule because he had the ball then it is guarding. This is the part of the rule dealing with guarding from your post above.

 

When A1 has control of the ball (provided that the offensive

post player A1 is not in the air at the time), the play shall become a guarding situation.

When it is a guarding situation involving the player with the ball, time and distance

shall be irrelevant.

You have quoted the screening rule which is correct if you set a screen outside the visual field of someone you have to give them one step to stop or change direction on a stationary opponent.

 

Thanks. I would interpret the rule also as saying that if a post is fronted and a second defender comes from behind to help (assuming the defender is in a blind area less than a step from the post), if the post is making a drop step while catching the ball and makes contact, the contact is not a player control foul. If the player clearly has the ball in his possession and then makes the drop into a defender, then the play is a player control foul. Do others see it thie way or am I off base?