Ask The Ref

[Coniglio]

QUOTE(defaultuser @ May 31 2007 - 11:37 PM) 826469943[/snapback]Wow that is kind of a long way away /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

 

"The best things come to those who wait."

[knoxgk]

On drop kicks, what is the ruling on the ball being dropped from the goalkeepers hands outside the 18. I know I have seen different things called, but what is the ruling on it. Can the goalkeeper come outside the box and then drop the ball or is it a hand ball?

[The Ref]

QUOTE(knoxgk @ Jun 1 2007 - 04:25 PM) 826470155[/snapback]On drop kicks, what is the ruling on the ball being dropped from the goalkeepers hands outside the 18. I know I have seen different things called, but what is the ruling on it. Can the goalkeeper come outside the box and then drop the ball or is it a hand ball?

 

 

 

If the keep has his hands on the ball when the ball exits the Penalty area completely, then it is handling ball. If he drops it in the penalty area and it lands outside the area, we are fair game.

 

That is the simple answer.

 

Referees do not like to call a handling on the keeper right outside the box for a couple of reasons. 1) the play is so fast that it doesn't really matter and you can't see 2) the Assistant referee (AR) has usually retreated upfield to line up with second to last defender.

 

These reasons make it difficult to call.

 

Also, the spirit of the game requires you to ask yourself "what affect does this have on the game". In reality a little bit over the penalty area line has no affect on what happens down field because most punts are 50/50.

 

A smart referee/AR will notice that the keeper is being liberal with his/her steps and warn them to watch the line before they get in trouble. A smart keeper will respond to this and watch where he is.

 

If you watch you will hear a Ref or AR shout "watch your line" 2 or 3 times or talk to the keeper at a stoppage or to the captain, then it makes it easy to call that infraction because everyone knows the keeper has been doing something wrong.

 

As referees we should try to prevent that from being called, and usually (unless it is really nasty) the all the players respond well since it fits within the spirit of the game. A setpiece to the attack at 18 yards is a huge advantage for a trifling offense

 

Any thoughts?

[Whitey]

OK, I am glad to see this discussion because the first response by AsktheRef is a prime example of what is wrong with refereeing in the State. "In the opinion of the referee" does not mean that a ref is given wide open range to impose their opinion on the game over the rules of the game. For instance, for a goal to be scored the rule is clear that all the ball must cross all the goal line for it to be a goal. If some ref has an opinion that any time the ball just touches the line because they do not like the rule as it is written and they are going to allow a goal anytime the ball just touches the line or anytime the keeper has the ball in their hands and they step on the line, their arbitrariness creates the confusion that we are seeing in soccer.

 

Now for PK's: the rule is clear that the keeper can move along the line but not come off the line until the ball is struck. AsktheRef that is the rule. When you say that you will allow someone to come 2 or 3 steps off the line but not 4 or 5 steps off the line then you are imposing your opinion on the game and disregarding the rules of the game. You will allow 2 or 3 steps but not 4 or 5. Another ref will allow 1 step and yet another ref will not allow any steps. How am I as a coach and my players supposed to know what to do in a game when refs are all over the place in enforcing the rule? This kind of inconsistency because refs have chosen through ego or whatever to disregard the rules of the game to set them aside and to allow their opinion to become the new rule is what is creating the frustration. How are the players and coaches supposed to know how the game is going to be played when they have to figure out what each ref's opinion is going to be everytime they step on the field?

 

Your job is to judge whether there has been an infraction of the rules; i.e. in your opinion did all the ball cross all the goal for a score to occur. You job is not to disregard the rules and impose your opinion on the game; i.e. "I think anytime the ball just touches the goal line that it should be a goal and I don't care what the rule says. I am going to call it a goal." Now, to the PK situation. The rule is to stay on the line till the ball is struck. In your opinion, did the keeper do that or not? That is all the allowance you have. You do not have the right to say it is ok for the keeper to come 2 to 3 steps off the line before the ball is struck. You do not have the right to say that the kicker would have missed the goal anyway. What is the rule of the game? Just enforce the rules and keep your ego and opinion out of the game. If you and all the other refs would do that, then the arbitrariness that we are seeing and the consequent frustration that you and other refs are creating would diminish significantly. You can't begin to understand the problems and the level of frustration that you are creating for the coaches and players by choosing to interpret the rules any way that you want to. It is hard to teach the kids to obey the rules when the ones who are responsible for enforcing the rules are just doing what they want, setting aside the rules, and creating the inconsistency that we are seeing from one ref to another.

 

If you really love the game and you want to see it improved in the State, do your job that you are being contracted to do and enforce the rules of the game and not impose your opinion on the game. Remove the inconsistency and the confusion.

 

Thank you very much for your work, effort, and your opinion.

[MD4Sports]

QUOTE(The Ref @ May 31 2007 - 10:55 PM) 826469918[/snapback]I know enough about the BHS/FHS game to answer questions about it, but I cannot ethically question or bash the gentlemen that refereed the game if I disagreed with anything.

 

I would prefer to stay with questions about the rules/laws of the game

 

 

I would never ask anyone to bash another referee. I simply want someone from NFHS or TSSAA, to explain the red/yellow given for taunting. The only two red/yellow situations in high school are for a second yellow in the same match or for excessive celebration. This clearly was neither of those. I assume that the powers that be consider the center referee in the AAA state championship game to be either the best or one of the best referees in state or he should not be given that assignment. So why can't we simply question a call with serious ramifications made in the biggest high school game of the year?

 

My contention is that this was an incorrect call since taunting was made a straight red two seasons ago, and there is no question this episode fit the definition of taunting. I also think TSSAA should review this at the next set of rules meetings in August. Everyone makes mistakes; I wish that these mistakes would be acknowledged so that we may learn from them instead of ignoring them as we usually do.

[defaultuser]

QUOTE(The Ref @ Jun 1 2007 - 05:05 PM) 826470181[/snapback]If the keep has his hands on the ball when the ball exits the Penalty area completely, then it is handling ball. If he drops it in the penalty area and it lands outside the area, we are fair game.

 

That is the simple answer.

 

Referees do not like to call a handling on the keeper right outside the box for a couple of reasons. 1) the play is so fast that it doesn't really matter and you can't see 2) the Assistant referee (AR) has usually retreated upfield to line up with second to last defender.

 

These reasons make it difficult to call.

 

Also, the spirit of the game requires you to ask yourself "what affect does this have on the game". In reality a little bit over the penalty area line has no affect on what happens down field because most punts are 50/50.

 

A smart referee/AR will notice that the keeper is being liberal with his/her steps and warn them to watch the line before they get in trouble. A smart keeper will respond to this and watch where he is.

 

If you watch you will hear a Ref or AR shout "watch your line" 2 or 3 times or talk to the keeper at a stoppage or to the captain, then it makes it easy to call that infraction because everyone knows the keeper has been doing something wrong.

 

As referees we should try to prevent that from being called, and usually (unless it is really nasty) the all the players respond well since it fits within the spirit of the game. A setpiece to the attack at 18 yards is a huge advantage for a trifling offense

 

Any thoughts?

 

Well I'm pretty sure that the spirit of the game shouldn't be a factor in this. A call is call as a foul is a foul. My team personally got screwed this season when we got a nastly fouled in the middle of the field and the ref said just play it. I know some calls are skeptical but ANYONE who would of seen this one would know it was a bad foul. Anyways the ref said play and it led them to scoring, it was directly because of that foul it was have been him man, So refs shouldn't call fouls or calls just because of the spirit of the game. They should call what happens regardless

[The Ref]

First, Please understand that we are not trying to impose our will or ego on the game. I do understand that there are referees who get a trip from the power that they gain from the situation of controlling the match and players, but that is not how we are supposed to conduct ourselves and how we are supposed to act. For the majority of us, especially those of us who advance and have the privledge of refereeing upper level matches, We are there because we love the game and we love being involved with a sport that we love. As a general rule, we try to do what is best for the game and ensure a fair outcome with the safety of the players taken in consideration.

 

I understand where you are coming from "A foul is a foul is a foul", but in some cases there is gray area where the individual referee makes a decision about what needs to be called. The USSF Advice to Referees (Found on the ussoccer.com) advises us to use judgment in calling fouls that are considered trifling as they lead to a situation that is unpleasant for both the players and the fans. If we were to call every little foul, then the game would stop constantly and nothing would get done. In fact, upper level games want a more physical game with less fouls called, as long as things are perceived as being fair: the fouls that need to be punished are punished, and the fouls that are trifling or would be disadvantagous to the attack should be avoided.

 

The question we always should ask ourselves with any foul: "Does it have an effect upon the opponent or the play?" if yes, then we restart play, if no.. then it is trifling and the game continues.

 

Does a keeper coming off the line when the shot goes over the net affect the game? I would say certainly not.

 

I understand Whitey's and defaultuser's complaint that he feels we impose our will on the game. We try to respond and adjust our game to how the State, how the players, and how the rules makers want the game to be run. It is a hard thing to do, but there is an amount of trust put into us to do the right thing.... and we always try to do what is right for the game.

 

I'm sorry if you got screwed: referees make mistakes or may have a different angle or have a million different other reasons what something is called or not called. We do our best with what we have, and sometimes that is not good enough for everyone else.

 

 

 

To MD4Sports:

 

As for the call in the Bearden/Farragut game: My understanding was the card was for different reasons, but you would have to contact TSSAA to have it cleared up because I have not see the report or heard justification for what happened. I hope the state will have the ablility to explain how things were written up and how they were handled on the administrative end of the game. If there is a problem, the referee will answer to them (they are handled privately and without notification of anyone outside the situation). The state builds a shield between the referees and the fans/players/parents, which they should. We are responsible for what we do and what is called and we respond to the proper authorities on those situations.

 

 

I am starting to understand there is much confusion over what we are taught to do by the higher ups, What is wanted by the plays, What is wanted by the coaches, and what is wanted by the Parents.

 

Is there something I should know that would help others and myself improve?

[Whitey]

"Does a keeper coming off the line when the shot goes over the net affect the game? I would say certainly not."

 

AsktheRef, I appreciate your frankness and your expressed concern for the game. I don't want to get into a running argument with you but I believe that you failed to recognize the main point I was making and that is in the area of "consistency." I know there are grey areas when it comes to calling a foul or saying play on, etc. However, there are other areas that are not "grey" where the rule is very plain and the application is simple.

 

Let's just focus on the PK and the keeper leaving the line since that has been a source of controversy. In another forum I was critical of a PK shootout where the keeper came 2 to 3 steps off the line 5 times and the ref did not call anything. I watched on the line to see if the keeper was going to do that because he had a habit of doing that if not to get to the ball early, then to possibly distract the kicker enough to make him miss. I knew that this keeper was going to leave the line early because in two games during the season he had done so and was called for it when the kickers missed the goal and were given rekicks (by the way, the correct call). In one game, the first kicker missed the goal twice when the keeper came off the line and was called for it. Finally, he made the PK on the third attempt. In the other game, the first kicker missed but because the keeper left the line a rekick was given and another kicker made the goal.

 

Now, we get down to the Regionals and it goes to PK's yet no call is made for the keeper (the very same keeper who during the season left the line early every time and had been called for it) leaving the line early (2 to 3 steps). My question again is this: How am I or any other coach with our players going to know what to do when you have this wide range of inconsistency with the application of the rules? It makes a mess of the game. Just provide a little sanity to the game and stop the inconsistency.

 

Last year's World Cup was ruined by the poor officiating. FIFA knows that it has a problem with the Refs however, FIFA is also part of the problem with the inconsistent messages they send out in their instructions to the Refs. However, we are talking about High School and not FIFA. In many cases, we have kids who have never even played the game before and we spend a significant amount of time just doing instruction. I always teach my players to abide by the rules and expect them to do so. When we practice PK's, I tell all the players what the rules and practice to ensure that the keeper holds the line until the ball is struck. I do not like coaches who teach their players how to get away with breaking the rules (taking dives, pulling shirts, etc. etc.).

 

Yes, please use common sense and maybe some compassion in the issuing of yellow and red cards (a judgment area). However, where the rules are not "grey" please just enforce the rules and give us an even playing field. I and other coaches are not asking for perfection. All of us make and will continue to make mistakes. The only thing that I ask of the refs when we hit the field is that we get a fair game. Unfortunately, it appears that there are some refs who wish to impose themselves on the game and fairness is the last thing that you get in those situations.

 

Please keep up the good work. However, if you are at the level in officiating that you claim to be, then for High School insist that the younger and newer refs just enforce the rules of the game and try to eliminate the confusion that is caused by being inconsistent. Thank you very much.

[The Ref]

Fair enough, I understand your plight.

 

But in soccer, as with all sports, players and coaches will try to bend the rules and get away with as much as they can.

 

Whitey, from you conversation, I assume that you are a parent or player who is an attacker. We would have a totally different conversation with a person who as played in goal or a defensive minded player. These players think standing at the 6 yard line would not have an affect on the kicker, and they usually try to get there.

 

Yes we work for consistancy, but each referee is different and judges the infractions different. As long as he is consistent through the game, there is not much to be said because it was the same for both teams. We work for a straight line across all referees,but with many personalities and tendencies, things change from person to person.

 

3 rekicks is a lot to take. First, Distraction is out because it is just as distracting to move legally side to side as it to move out. Second, missing the goal to the side or over the top is not affected by the keeper jumping off his line and there should be no retake (trifling offense by the keeper). Third, if the keeper jumps out off his line a gross amount more than once, it should probably be handled with more than a rekick.

[Whitey]

"Whitey, from you conversation, I assume that you are a parent or player who is an attacker."

 

 

Neither, I thought it was pretty plain in my two posts that I am a Coach (a pretty poor one some would say, but a coach). Been around for 40 years. Started playing when I was nine and have coached and reffered at different levels. There have been a lot of changes in the game over the years and most of them for the better since one of my favorites (Kyle Rote, Jr.) played locally here on the mountain.

 

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

[kakemono]

The Ref,

I believe that as the level of competition increases and the maturity of the players increases, the spirit of the game should be given more and more weight. At the high school level, despite what the players want to think, thier maturity and level of competition is low enough that you should still call a very detailed style of play. Dot your I's and cross your T's. As you referee levels of competitions at a higher college level and various professional levels, the spirit is given more weight and you can expect the players to respond better. The fact is, in high school sports, if you allow a foul to one team, whether or not they keep possession or play is unaffected, they will interpret (incorrectly, but still the same), that this is acceptable by your terms.

 

Judgement calls should be at a very minimum at lower levels. There is a rule against jewelry that is strictly enforced at young ages, but is rarely enforced at professional levels. Why? Jewelry has no effect on balls skills and giving one team an unfair advantage. This is a very basic example of how the spirit of the game changes based on skill level and maturity, but it still holds truth.

 

 

"3 rekicks is a lot to take. First, Distraction is out because it is just as distracting to move legally side to side as it to move out. Second, missing the goal to the side or over the top is not affected by the keeper jumping off his line and there should be no retake (trifling offense by the keeper). Third, if the keeper jumps out off his line a gross amount more than once, it should probably be handled with more than a rekick."

 

That is a lot of opinions to be had on one play.

Do you tell each team before each game how many rekicks is a "lot"?

Do you tell each team before each game what you consider to be distracting? What about yelling? Coughing? Shaking hands around? Mean faces?

Do you tell each team before each game how jumping off the line will be handled? Rekick (unless it is over 3)? Yellow card?

If you do, then I think your fine, but if you don't there is too much ambiguity.

[The Ref]

QUOTE(kakemono @ Jun 4 2007 - 02:07 PM) 826471202[/snapback]That is a lot of opinions to be had on one play.

Do you tell each team before each game how many rekicks is a "lot"?

Do you tell each team before each game what you consider to be distracting? What about yelling? Coughing? Shaking hands around? Mean faces?

Do you tell each team before each game how jumping off the line will be handled? Rekick (unless it is over 3)? Yellow card?

If you do, then I think your fine, but if you don't there is too much ambiguity.

 

 

 

The High Schools in Tennessee vary greatly. Teams at the top, such as the finalist this year are very advanced and mature player and understand the game very well. Many of them will play at a D1 college and maybe even professional.

 

As for myself I sometimes forget that there are places that are still learning and advancing their game and have a different view of the game than other games. I have gotten myself in trouble many times for not adjusting my game to the level of play, but I do my best to do this

 

On a PK, if I feel the keeper has come out to gain an advantage on the play, I will point to how far out he was and make sure that it is clear what was done, where he was and that it was not acceptable. It should be very, very clear what happened to everyone who sees.

 

Also, If he does it 2 times in a row.... that is persistent, no question. If a player fouls the same player 2 times in a row in a matter of seconds, that is persistent (whether it is handled with a word or a card).

 

Yelling is definitely unsporting. No question. It is an unprofessional act to gain an unfair advantage. Same concept when someone yells when someone is taking a header (look up how Alex Rodriquez took heat for the shenanigans he pulled in a baseball game).

 

Most of the teams understand how the kicks are to proceed. I say as little as possible before hand and try to answer questions and help the players understand how things will go during the match. (They don't listen, and I don't want to back myself into a corner with what I say before a match).

 

A PK is a very, very, very quick event. Distracting is out because that is what we are taught and what is considered fair for the game. This make sense to me, but I understand how it could be perceived that way. My understanding is that the kicker has a side picked, and the keeper has a side picked and if the keeper gets the ball, he is lucky. Distracting the kicker seems foreign to me.

 

I understand this is a hard concept to understand, but the question it goes back to is "Does the keeper's actions affect the opponent or the game?" and that is what we try to get back to