What the heck is a "level playing field"

[rick7425]

I'm having a really hard time with all these generalizations about "advantages" and "disadvantages." It seems much too convenient to look only at a particular school that wins championships in a particular sport and then extrapolate that into these generalizations.

 

FRA is a small private school in an urban area. Seemingly it should enjoy whatever "advantages" the small DI privates supposedly have. Nonetheless, FRA football this century has been a study in futility -- even when it was coached by the same guy who just won a Division II state championship at MBA. The boys' basketball team made it to the state tournament once this century with a group of seniors who had played together since middle school, and promptly lost in the first round to a rural public school. The girls' basketball team made it to the state tournament once this century and lost in the first round to York, from the rural Fentress County area. If FRA has all these "advantages," why have they not enjoyed more success in football and basketball?

 

Admittedly FRA has been very successful this century in boys' cross country and girls' soccer. If that success is because of all their private school "advantages," why haven't those "advantages" translated into such success in all other sports?

 

Could it be that success comes from a combination of coaching, commitment, tradition, luck, talent, hard work, and any number of the other factors? And could it be that some programs simply find that right combination while others do not?

[Antwan]

Not using Baldy math, just stating facts. The small privates do NOT have more athletes to choose from. Our zone is closed...as closed as any public zone. Our zone is just financial, not geographic.

 

So your 1 main reason is that the small privates have more athletes? That is why they should be split?

 

 

Yes...that is my number 1 main reason. Small privates have the potential to have more athletes to choose from. There are always exceptions to any scenario. Small publics (excluding Alcoa) don't have that same opportunity.

 

Now...answer the question I asked. Do you think aid and non-aid privates should be in the same class?

[Antwan]

I'm having a really hard time with all these generalizations about "advantages" and "disadvantages." It seems much too convenient to look only at a particular school that wins championships in a particular sport and then extrapolate that into these generalizations.

 

FRA is a small private school in an urban area. Seemingly it should enjoy whatever "advantages" the small DI privates supposedly have. Nonetheless, FRA football this century has been a study in futility -- even when it was coached by the same guy who just won a Division II state championship at MBA. The boys' basketball team made it to the state tournament once this century with a group of seniors who had played together since middle school, and promptly lost in the first round to a rural public school. The girls' basketball team made it to the state tournament once this century and lost in the first round to York, from the rural Fentress County area. If FRA has all these "advantages," why have they not enjoyed more success in football and basketball?

 

Admittedly FRA has been very successful this century in boys' cross country and girls' soccer. If that success is because of all their private school "advantages," why haven't those "advantages" translated into such success in all other sports?

 

Could it be that success comes from a combination of coaching, commitment, tradition, luck, talent, hard work, and any number of the other factors? And could it be that some programs simply find that right combination while others do not?

 

 

There are exceptions to everything. FRA has been very good in the not too distant past. I don't know what their problem is. Small privates...as a whole...have been better than small publics of the same enrollment.

[PBandJ]

There are exceptions to everything. FRA has been very good in the not too distant past. I don't know what their problem is. Small privates...as a whole...have been better than small publics of the same enrollment.

 

Their "zone" is a little smaller than the other small privates. The tuition for high school aged children is almost double that of Goodpasture, DCA and Ezell. I will say that point does somewhat validate BaldCoach's statement regarding tuition constituting their "zone". Perhaps there is a corelative effect on small DI privates - the higher the tuition the smaller the zone.

[Baldcoach]

Yes...that is my number 1 main reason. Small privates have the potential to have more athletes to choose from. There are always exceptions to any scenario. Small publics (excluding Alcoa) don't have that same opportunity.

 

Now...answer the question I asked. Do you think aid and non-aid privates should be in the same class?

 

 

I think we should all be in the same division, aid, non-aid, magnet, open zone, closed zone. I never had a problem with playing the aid schools. It was really BA beating Riverdale that got all of that (and this) started. I think the potential for abuse is greater for those schools that offer financial aid, but that does not mean that all of those schools actually abuse the system. From the beginning I thought the TSSAA should severly punish intentional violaters rather than force a new division. If you want to discourage cheating you smash it hard every time it turns up, you don't declare a whole group of schools guilty and separate them. It would be the equivalent of me catching an athlete cheating on a test and giving all athletes in the classroom 0s because I thought they were more likely to cheat than non-athletes. I'm thinking most people wouldn't stand for that. I don't know why they stand for this.

 

Here is a question back at you. Wouldt you agree that publics in open counties or magnets have even more athletes to choose from than small privates?

 

And here is a question about your assumption that we have more to choose from. Have you actually checked population demographics vs. incomes to come to that conclusion, or is it just a 'feeling' you have?

[Baldcoach]

Their "zone" is a little smaller than the other small privates. The tuition for high school aged children is almost double that of Goodpasture, DCA and Ezell. I will say that point does somewhat validate BaldCoach's statement regarding tuition constituting their "zone". Perhaps there is a corelative effect on small DI privates - the higher the tuition the smaller the zone.

 

 

I would say that that assumption must be true. I would also propose that it is a multiplicative effect...not only do you reduce the families available to pay as you raise tuition, but you begin to draw from the same incomes that are already being mined by the elite preps. Since they can offer financial aid, you actually cost MORE than they do too...a tough place to be.

 

We are seeing some of this in the 'nooga right now. The preps get 5 or 6 of our best academic/athletic kids every year by giving out enough financial aid that they can attend for LESS than what they pay to attend our school. It is why I get a laugh when small publics complain about the DI privates having more and better athletes...many of our best get siphoned right off to the elite preps.

[rick7425]

Their "zone" is a little smaller than the other small privates. The tuition for high school aged children is almost double that of Goodpasture, DCA and Ezell. I will say that point does somewhat validate BaldCoach's statement regarding tuition constituting their "zone". Perhaps there is a corelative effect on small DI privates - the higher the tuition the smaller the zone.

 

The tuition at FRA may be higher than some of the other privates mentioned, but FRA is also geographically situated near the Oak Hill and Brentwood communities where per capita income of those families most likely to choose the school also tend to be higher. And I haven't checked, but I suspect the tuition at CPA -- which has had a very competitive football program for some time -- is fairly comparable to FRA's tuition. With that said, I agree that tuition, particularly for DI privates (no need-based financial aid for varsity athletes), does limit the number of prospective student-athletes just as geographic zones create those limits for public schools.

 

My questions still remain. If the "advantage" of the DI privates -- whatever it is -- is so clear, then why hasn't it translated into greater success for FRA on the football field and the basketball court? And is that "advantage" the explanation for FRA's success in boys' cross country, or could it be that that success comes from a good coach and some committed kids who work really hard to be a part of carrying on a tradition of success? It is much too easy to just say that there are always exceptions. That's another generalization. These are contrasts in levels of success within a single school, where the theoretical private school "advantage" should not change from one sport to the next.

 

As for soccer, I believe that the differences in programs across the state are primarily based on geography -- schools in urban areas, whether private or public, have the advantage of kids who are already schooled in soccer through youth programs that are far more developed than they are in urban areas. And since in the smaller classifications the private schools will tend to be from those urban areas while the public schools tend to be from rural areas, there has been more private school success. That, I believe, is an urban/rural issue, not a public/private issue. I suspet that in the larger enrollment classifications as well, the more successful soccer programs tend to be from urban areas.

[PBandJ]

The tuition at FRA may be higher than some of the other privates mentioned, but FRA is also geographically situated near the Oak Hill and Brentwood communities where per capita income of those families most likely to choose the school also tend to be higher. And I haven't checked, but I suspect the tuition at CPA -- which has had a very competitive football program for some time -- is fairly comparable to FRA's tuition. With that said, I agree that tuition, particularly for DI privates (no need-based financial aid for varsity athletes), does limit the number of prospective student-athletes just as geographic zones create those limits for public schools.

 

While FRA is situated near Oak Hill and Brentwood, there are two factors working against them. One being that Williamson Co schools are very good and the second being that if you are going to pay that kind of money to attend a private, you will pay it to attend one of the elite preps like MBA or Ensworth. As for CPA's tuition costs - they are almost $5K cheaper than FRA if you are not a member of Christ Pres Church and almost $6K cheaper if you are a member. That is a big swing that pays a good portion of what child #2 needs to attend as well. Then, like BC stated above, the elite preps come and cherrypick the brightest and most athletic.

 

My questions still remain. If the "advantage" of the DI privates -- whatever it is -- is so clear, then why hasn't it translated into greater success for FRA on the football field and the basketball court? And is that "advantage" the explanation for FRA's success in boys' cross country, or could it be that that success comes from a good coach and some committed kids who work really hard to be a part of carrying on a tradition of success? It is much too easy to just say that there are always exceptions. That's another generalization. These are contrasts in levels of success within a single school, where the theoretical private school "advantage" should not change from one sport to the next.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I think all the DI privates have been lumped into a "private" bucket because of 1 single event - Brentwood Acad beating Riverdale. There is no other reason. The advantage is that each private school is literally a business. They have to manage to budgets and be held accountable - otherwise they are out of business all together.

 

My irritation is that there are two schools literally within walking distance of each other - that dominate like no other two schools ever have.

[Antwan]

Their "zone" is a little smaller than the other small privates. The tuition for high school aged children is almost double that of Goodpasture, DCA and Ezell. I will say that point does somewhat validate BaldCoach's statement regarding tuition constituting their "zone". Perhaps there is a corelative effect on small DI privates - the higher the tuition the smaller the zone.

 

 

It doesn't seem to bother BA much. It's virtually the same price as FRA. It sounds like FRA may be a little overpriced. Which one is better academically? At that price...why is FRA in DI? It looks like they are an elite prep school playing in DI athletics.

[PBandJ]

It doesn't seem to bother BA much. It's virtually the same price as FRA. It sounds like FRA may be a little overpriced. Which one is better academically? At that price...why is FRA in DI? It looks like they are an elite prep school playing in DI athletics.

 

It doesn't bother BA that much because they play in DII and offer financial aide - which can dramatically reduce the tuition hardship. In terms of academics, it is my understanding that both are very strong. I don't think many folks think of BA in that light, but that is my understanding from some co-workers who have children that attend.

 

In terms of FRA and DI - I definitely agree they have some confusion on exactly what they want to be. I think it shows in terms of their enrollment and also athletic performance. I think it is that smaller enrollment that keeps them from pushing to DII. I can only imagine FRA competing head to head with MBA, MUS, etc. Yikes! That's assuming they would creap into the higher DII class in football.

[big red big blue]

It doesn't seem to bother BA much. It's virtually the same price as FRA. It sounds like FRA may be a little overpriced. Which one is better academically? At that price...why is FRA in DI? It looks like they are an elite prep school playing in DI athletics.

 

 

I think PBJ is right--FRA has really been squeezed by both the bigger prep schools and the Williamson County schools. A big deal for both FRA and BGA is that they are relatively small secular private schools. The smaller religiously-affiliated schools have carved out their niches by appealing to their particular religious constituencies...BA (imo) is sort of a cross between MBA/Ensworth and a small religious school...I think that as tuition costs have gone up, a lot of Nashville-area families have reached that tipping point at which they decide to move to Williamson County and enjoy the high quality free public education rather than sink 10s of thousands of dollars into private schools. 10-15 years ago, that same family would have been a prime candidate for FRA.

 

Another big difference (again...my opinion) is that BA is a Williamson County institution....It is distinctly "Williamson County" if that makes sense. There is a significant population there that wants a small, LOCAL private school with a religious affiliation. BA has really taken off as a school just as the Williamson County public schools have. I'm not sure who exactly FRA is trying to appeal to....

[easttnref]

Reaction sorry to here about your loss, was that 6 years ago? For the record since '04 there have been only 2 public schools to reach the girls soccer State tourny. For the record during that time period, private school sent 30 teams to the state tourny.

 

For the boys during that time period, 4 public schools have made to the finals while the privates have sent 28.

 

And yes I know soccer is a different animal than football. But I'm surprised that your not using your own quote to the private school football posters that "Not everyone can win a championship"

 

 

 

I know it doesn't cover football and basketball but i would say the numbers are similar in A/AA Baseball and softball maybe a few more publics, but baseball and softball are starting to go to the big travel teams like soccer paying high prices for good coaching and a chance to play with some of the best players in the area and that gives the advantage to the privates and urban areas