Kicks From The Mark (PK's)

[Coniglio]

I'm behind coaches arm wrestling.

[BigDog7]

The main part you look at is the amount of time that is being played. You obviously can't take a player off each min or keep playing overtime mainly because you are constantly moving and they believe that Say you make it to the 150th min of overtime and a kid passes out from fatigue that is putting the players at somewhat of a health risk and with the heat as it was for the D2 AA final it was humid and hot and you can tell that most players were ready to just stop and that was with a 50 min delay.

I think they should do the kicks like FIFA where the players that were on the field are the ones that take the kicks. So you don't have fresh legs kicking as apposed everyone is tired to an extent to when they take the kicks. I think players like taking Pks because that is part of the game and it's always been part of the game.

Tactically if you are a coach and realize,"well we don't have the offense to beat this team" then the best option would be to play say a 5-4-1 or a 4-5-1 to play defensively minded or "play for pks". If you have a keeper like the Webb keeper, wouldn't you use that to your advantage because soccer is about strategy and not about the players that play. If the eleven that are on the field believe in the system and understand that system, what does it matter if they the better team or the worse team but if they know if they just hold out for 110 mins, they have a great shot at winning if it goes to pks.

 

 

You've made my point. They are not playing the game to win. They are playing to hold out for 110 minutes. There is a difference. I would venture that you would not have as many 110 minute games if KFTM were not an option. The incentive would be to play and win by scoring goals - as it should be. I believe more games would be settled earlier, not take longer. You would only see packing it in when a team was ahead, and as I've said above, that is a very legitimate use of the strategy.

 

I would also argue that the CBHS players were not "ready to just stop". They had FR on the ropes and would have welcomed the opportunity to continue playing.

 

I do agree that PK's are an integral part of the game. They are the reward/penalty for a penal foul in the box, and take place during the normal course of play. They are very exciting and have an important place in the game. They are also exciting during KFTM to settle championships, but that still doesn't make them the best way to determine a championship team. I believe most players, if asked not in the heat of a tournament, would prefer not to settle the game with KFTM.

[BigDog7]

I'm behind coaches arm wrestling.

 

 

Are you kidding me?? CAK would never lose. Have you seen G's forearms? The guy's a monster! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[BigG]

Are you kidding me?? CAK would never lose. Have you seen G's forearms? The guy's a monster! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

 

Ha Ha! I could beat Reaction and Coniglio, and that's about it (but that's like bragging about being able to kick a pet bunny, so...). Now, if it were Mario Kart, you all would be in trouble!

 

I think no matter how hard it is to lose on PK's, you have to end it that way. It's one thing to take guys off the field in indoor (which is something they still do) but the field isn't 120 X80, and the game isn't 110 minutes long. You are just asking for injuries, and possibilities of an almost endless game. We start practicing PK's about a month before district. I don't think you go and change the game, like they did in the americanized leagues where you could either take a throw in OR a kick in from 30 yards and out on the sidelines. OR the MLS shootout style. While it might be more "entertaining", it just isn't soccer to me.

[hamlet7478]

Both methods have drawbacks, but PK's has history on its side. One of the great things about soccer is that it has relatively few rules and they never change. Sustaining something that allows for comparisons accross States, Nations and generations is important. That's why I say keep the PK's.

[BigDog7]

Good input from all perspectives. My youngest has just graduated, so I no longer have a dog in the fight. But, I do enjoy a good debate! Best wishes for a good Summer for all. Go Cardinals . . .

[thewall92]

You've made my point. They are not playing the game to win. They are playing to hold out for 110 minutes. There is a difference. I would venture that you would not have as many 110 minute games if KFTM were not an option. The incentive would be to play and win by scoring goals - as it should be. I believe more games would be settled earlier, not take longer. You would only see packing it in when a team was ahead, and as I've said above, that is a very legitimate use of the strategy.

 

I would also argue that the CBHS players were not "ready to just stop". They had FR on the ropes and would have welcomed the opportunity to continue playing.

 

 

First off it sounds like someones a little bit of a sore loser.

 

Secondly, when you say people dont play the game to win and just hold out until pks..... that is a strategy and if the team is good enough to pull off that strategy then thats soccer and its a plan well thought out and executed.

 

Thirdly, when u say that that CBHS players were not "ready to just stop".. i was at the game and both teams were equally tired and FRHS seemed to actually be having more oppurtunities on the goal.

 

Finally...Once the teams are in KFTM its a completely fair way to solve the game... the team with the better and luckier goalie.. and the more confident and skilled shooters will win.

[BigDog7]

First off it sounds like someones a little bit of a sore loser.

 

Secondly, when you say people dont play the game to win and just hold out until pks..... that is a strategy and if the team is good enough to pull off that strategy then thats soccer and its a plan well thought out and executed.

 

Thirdly, when u say that that CBHS players were not "ready to just stop".. i was at the game and both teams were equally tired and FRHS seemed to actually be having more oppurtunities on the goal.

 

Finally...Once the teams are in KFTM its a completely fair way to solve the game... the team with the better and luckier goalie.. and the more confident and skilled shooters will win.

 

 

The only reason I will even respond to this is the sore loser comment. Hopefully, anything I've posted would be interpreted as being a gracious loser. If you will take the time to go back and read all the posts, you will see the discussion is about an idea, not a specific game. And, it has been an interesting thread.

 

The remainder of your post is your perspective and, as with everyone's, I respect your right to your views. However, as you grow older, hopefully you'll realize that personal attacks in a public forum, particularly without any facts, only detract from any credibility you may have or hope to develop.

[bojak3]

First, congratulations to Father Ryan on winning the D2 AA this year. Well done.

 

Second, this is not about the strategy of putting ten or eleven men behind the ball (packing it in), although it will seem that way.

 

Third, this is not sour grapes even though CBHS finished second for the fourth year in a row. Having watched a combination of my two sons playing there over the last six years, I believe year in and year out it is one of the top, if not the top, program in the state.

 

Fourth, my wife is tired of hearing me talk about this and finally told me to go tell someone who cares!

 

Keeping is short, I believe KFTM should be removed as a way of settling playoff games. It encourages teams to pack it in and play for a tie, knowing the odds change dramatically if you can get to that point. I believe packing it in is a very good and legitimate strategy for protecting a lead. Last year's final saw Baylor go up 1-0 on CBHS and they protected the lead. An excellent strategy used in the right situation and they won in regulation - as it should be.

 

In the six years I've watched state, CBHS has been eliminated three of those years in PK's. In each case, the opposition ended up, some in the beginning, packing it in and playing for a tie because they were tired or refused to engage against a better team. That is within the rules, so no problem. I just believe it does not produce a true champion. CBHS also won a quarterfinal game in PK's one year. In my opinion, that was luck on our part.

 

To me, packing it in is not the villain, it is KFTM. It rewards the strategy, when the strategy would most likely not be used otherwise. The game is not settled by the team, and it only sets someone - a keeper or a shooter - to be the goat in the loss. To me, it is similar to shooting free throws to decide a basketball game. Speaking of basketball, those of us old enough to remember, the NCAA put in the shot clock for a very similar reason years ago. Teams would go into the four corner stall, and the game became a travesty.

 

My suggestion, and I saw it used in SuperClubs - once with my son's team and once as a referee. Play the two tens to completion. Still tied? Go to 7v7 golden goal for five minutes. Still tied? Go to 6v6 golden goal. Keep doing that, and a team will win and it will be decided by the players playing the game - not trying to outguess each other at the PK line. BTW, neither of the two games took more than the 7v7 period. It changes the game dramatically.

 

I plan on suggesting this to the TSSAA, but who knows how that will be taken??

 

Again, a sincere congrats to Father Ryan this year, BGA in 2006, and University School of Nashville in 2004. Those were all wins of which you should be proud.

 

I am a player, and i know for a fact that Father Ryan did not try to "pack it in" so that they could go to pk's...we dreaded pk's, and we tried all we could to capitalize as did CBHS...both teams had a few opportunities in both overtimes to put the game away, but neither could finish...and i just don't really agree with calling pk's "unfair" because can you really say one team is better than the other if you played longer than 110 mins and one team gives up a goal because of fatigue? It's a state tournament game, and unless you are the opposing team down a goal, no team is satisfied with getting a tie until the end of regulation and overtimes. The players play as hard as they can, and I really do not see it as fair to say that a team "packs it in" when they are tired...sure it may seem like it, but I've been there and though players may look sluggish and look like they are "packing it in" they are really dying and doing all that tey can to keep the opposing team from scoring. More often than not that is the case because "packing it in" on purpose puts a GREAT deal of pressure on the defense...also when players have played for 110 minutes in 80 to 85 degree heat, it may seem like the strikers have gone back to "pack it in" but really they do not want to lose and you win as a team and lose as a team...that means it takes 11 to defend and 11 to attack...honestly "packing it in" is not that at all, it is the players doing all they can because they know that they have almost nothing left in the tank and they will not sit back and watch the other team's offense beat their defense. As much as it seems like a team "packs it in", it is usually more that they are the team who was in the worse physical shape...CBHS had us on our heels a lot in overimes, but we had our spurts just as well...what it comes down to is who wants it more, and we did all we could to keep ourselves fom going down a goal because we knew we were all tired and we were doing the best we could to get the ball on the CBHS side of the field...and when we had it down there.....CBHS "packed it in" so that we could not score...it is not a strategy more so as it is a survival instinct...also i don't really know if CBHS ever practiced pk's as a team or at all, but we did because we knew that going down to pk's was a very good possibilty...just as you prepare for the opposing team, you have to prepare for what the game could possibly come down to...no win is ever in the bag

 

on a second note, taking a pk takes a lot out of a player. you choose your best players, and after that...it is all up to those few players to determine the game. once again, this comes down to who wants it more, what team can better handle the pressure, and what team can execute and get the job done. think about walking up to the penalty spot, placing the ball down, looking up and seeing one person standing between you and a goal, and on top of all of this you are being watched...you are being watched by your entire team, the opposing team, your parents, family members, friends, classmates, ppl you don't even know...and at the moment that player steps up to take his pk, he enetrs a world that is solely reality...if i miss it could be my fault we lose. if i miss will everyone hate me? the slightest mistake could cause you to miss one of the biggest shots you will ever take. and if you are a senior, the biggest shaot you will ever take, the last shot you may ever take, and the last time you will ever have to win a championship like that, not to mention the fact that it could be the best opportunity you have ever had to win a championship of that caliber...so you can look at pk's and say it's a crap shoot if you want, but handling that amount of pressure and finishing is a great feat and takes a great deal of skill. oh and i almost forgot...there is also a keeper standing in front of you and the back of the net...so it is also a mind game between those two...who can read the other and who can fool the other.

 

i'm sorry, but it's CBHS fault if they didn't prepare for pk's...they knew it could possibly happen, esp. when they have had it happen before. and if they did prepare, then they did all they could...i'm not saying they didn't have a chance once it got down to that because i played for ryan and we did not want it to go down to pk's...but once it did we knew there was nothing we could do to change it...esp. after an unfortunate own-goal tied that game up and had it never happened we possibly wouldn't have been in that position...so we accepted what it had come down to and decided we wouldn't dwell on the odds, but rather we would do what we could with what had been dealt to us.

 

it was a great game, and there were times when i know both teams wanted to collapse...thus playing on after 110 minutes of play really wouldn't have been fair to either team. both teams played their hearts out and played as as hard as they could...and after being deadlocked for an extra 30 minutes with play getting progessively more sluggish and sporadic, pk's was the best option for either team. it gives both teams a fair chance to put the game away...

[BigDog7]

I am a player, and i know for a fact that Father Ryan did not try to "pack it in" so that they could go to pk's...we dreaded pk's, and we tried all we could to capitalize as did CBHS...both teams had a few opportunities in both overtimes to put the game away, but neither could finish...and i just don't really agree with calling pk's "unfair" because can you really say one team is better than the other if you played longer than 110 mins and one team gives up a goal because of fatigue? It's a state tournament game, and unless you are the opposing team down a goal, no team is satisfied with getting a tie until the end of regulation and overtimes. The players play as hard as they can, and I really do not see it as fair to say that a team "packs it in" when they are tired...sure it may seem like it, but I've been there and though players may look sluggish and look like they are "packing it in" they are really dying and doing all that tey can to keep the opposing team from scoring. More often than not that is the case because "packing it in" on purpose puts a GREAT deal of pressure on the defense...also when players have played for 110 minutes in 80 to 85 degree heat, it may seem like the strikers have gone back to "pack it in" but really they do not want to lose and you win as a team and lose as a team...that means it takes 11 to defend and 11 to attack...honestly "packing it in" is not that at all, it is the players doing all they can because they know that they have almost nothing left in the tank and they will not sit back and watch the other team's offense beat their defense. As much as it seems like a team "packs it in", it is usually more that they are the team who was in the worse physical shape...CBHS had us on our heels a lot in overimes, but we had our spurts just as well...what it comes down to is who wants it more, and we did all we could to keep ourselves fom going down a goal because we knew we were all tired and we were doing the best we could to get the ball on the CBHS side of the field...and when we had it down there.....CBHS "packed it in" so that we could not score...it is not a strategy more so as it is a survival instinct...also i don't really know if CBHS ever practiced pk's as a team or at all, but we did because we knew that going down to pk's was a very good possibilty...just as you prepare for the opposing team, you have to prepare for what the game could possibly come down to...no win is ever in the bag

 

on a second note, taking a pk takes a lot out of a player. you choose your best players, and after that...it is all up to those few players to determine the game. once again, this comes down to who wants it more, what team can better handle the pressure, and what team can execute and get the job done. think about walking up to the penalty spot, placing the ball down, looking up and seeing one person standing between you and a goal, and on top of all of this you are being watched...you are being watched by your entire team, the opposing team, your parents, family members, friends, classmates, ppl you don't even know...and at the moment that player steps up to take his pk, he enetrs a world that is solely reality...if i miss it could be my fault we lose. if i miss will everyone hate me? the slightest mistake could cause you to miss one of the biggest shots you will ever take. and if you are a senior, the biggest shaot you will ever take, the last shot you may ever take, and the last time you will ever have to win a championship like that, not to mention the fact that it could be the best opportunity you have ever had to win a championship of that caliber...so you can look at pk's and say it's a crap shoot if you want, but handling that amount of pressure and finishing is a great feat and takes a great deal of skill. oh and i almost forgot...there is also a keeper standing in front of you and the back of the net...so it is also a mind game between those two...who can read the other and who can fool the other.

 

i'm sorry, but it's CBHS fault if they didn't prepare for pk's...they knew it could possibly happen, esp. when they have had it happen before. and if they did prepare, then they did all they could...i'm not saying they didn't have a chance once it got down to that because i played for ryan and we did not want it to go down to pk's...but once it did we knew there was nothing we could do to change it...esp. after an unfortunate own-goal tied that game up and had it never happened we possibly wouldn't have been in that position...so we accepted what it had come down to and decided we wouldn't dwell on the odds, but rather we would do what we could with what had been dealt to us.

 

it was a great game, and there were times when i know both teams wanted to collapse...thus playing on after 110 minutes of play really wouldn't have been fair to either team. both teams played their hearts out and played as as hard as they could...and after being deadlocked for an extra 30 minutes with play getting progessively more sluggish and sporadic, pk's was the best option for either team. it gives both teams a fair chance to put the game away...

 

 

Wow - what an excellent and well written insight from a player's perspective! Thank you for taking the time to compose your thoughts and respond so credibly. If I've marginalized Father Ryan's victory in any way, you have my sincere apology. That was never meant to be the case. You are absolutely right - you played the game under the structure established for both teams. It was a great battle and the players on both sides left it all on the field. You have my respect for your efforts, my congratulations on your win, and my best wishes for future success after high school! /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

[thewall92]

beautifully written

[thewall92]

back to the discussion of whether pks are the best way to decide a game.... im watching the nhl playoffs and their system seems to be to your liking bigdog.

they simply play consecutive sudden death overtimes and the games not over til someone scores.

to me this seems fair i would only worry about players fitness and health.. and quality of play which would all deteriorate significantly.