High School Coaches running summer ball

[riverdaleman]

Diamondhounds im going to slightly disagree with you on some of your points....I am not a high school coach but a parent of 2 boys who have played withe 1 gone and one a SR and 2 more on the way IF they are good enough. I am also an umpire so i see a lot of these travel teams...

The first thing i really disagree with is that the coaches have plenty of time from fall til may to teach these kids on what they want...this is inaccurate because the coaches cannot coach them in the fall while some of them do play they are not coached by their coaches it is usually parents or in our situation it is by different people each week due to the new fall ball rules of no more than 5 from one school per team so we are all split up with no coach and no practice(which is fine its more of a fun league and they use wood bats)

secondly did you know that spring sports (espcially baseball and softball) have more down time and to where the coaches cannot coach or have contact with the kids than any other sport? in fact 2 weeks of it is right in the middle of our summer season. someone did a break down of it not long ago and most sports are around the 20 day range of dead period and spring sports had around 60 (someone please correct me if i am wrong)

so you take fall away the only real time has time to coach their kids and see what they can do is 1 month before the regular season starts and with new limits on scrimmage he can only see you play a few innings or so before the season starts...so you take summer away and you are really taking time away...

In summer ball you are taking a good chance of getting a good coach as well. lets not forget the time together with your teammates and how that helps develop chemistry for the TEAM and the parents because if you want a successful program you need all those things to work together

[ksgovols]

Summer programs don't fall under the long arm of the TSSAA in baseball. Summer teams play right through the dead period. AAU basketball is similar.

 

I think it depends on the summer program and I've been on both sides of the argument. So far, my junior hasn't played for his high school coach in the summer. They've not had a summer team. The result of that is 75% of the guys don't play summer ball at all. That's not conducive to having a very good high school program in my opinion. The new coach is going to have a summer program. I think there will also be opportunities for some guys to play on elite teams or travel programs they already have a relationship with. When that team's not playing, they are to be with their high school's summer team. But that's a fine line if a number of kids want to play somewhere else. There's already basketball conflicts in June and football conflicts in July.

[riverdaleman]

Summer programs don't fall under the long arm of the TSSAA in baseball. Summer teams play right through the dead period. AAU basketball is similar.

 

I think it depends on the summer program and I've been on both sides of the argument. So far, my junior hasn't played for his high school coach in the summer. They've not had a summer team. The result of that is 75% of the guys don't play summer ball at all. That's not conducive to having a very good high school program in my opinion. The new coach is going to have a summer program. I think there will also be opportunities for some guys to play on elite teams or travel programs they already have a relationship with. When that team's not playing, they are to be with their high school's summer team. But that's a fine line if a number of kids want to play somewhere else. There's already basketball conflicts in June and football conflicts in July.

the hihg school coach cant coach during the dead period of summer

[ksgovols]

Right. But the boys play right through it. Heck, some of the bigger and better tournaments are during 4th of July weekend. The point is the TSSAA doesn't have any authority over summer baseball teams. Rather, they have authority over TSSAA member school's coaches. I think that's as it should be.

 

I'll contend that the summer ball experience has more to do with the coach than whether it's a travel team or a high school team. Summer's for getting better. You get better by practicing and then applying what you've practiced in a game imo. Just by proximity and the fact that high school coaches don't necessarily have to work in the summer, they can offer more instruction time it seems to me. Playing every day is great if it's going good. If a player is in a slump or something, there's little time to fix the problem without practice.

 

On the flip side, it did my son a world of good to get away from the same teammates he'd been playing with since tee ball, which is how it is in small communities. He was appreciated for the 'here and the now' so to speak and had to earn the respect of his new teammates. He flourished in a different environment and there wasn't any old baggage. Last year he played on more of an elite team and was one of the younger players. The competition was good and he got something out of it, but it was more about winning games than getting better. Just a different perspective. Most players don't really have a lot of choices in the summer. If the high school team doesn't have a summer program, they're not playing. If you're in a position where you can pick and choose, consider yourself lucky.

[Mwalls14]

diamondhounds has some valid points but also a few I disagree with.

 

you mentioned the coach having the players from October through the season. Actually, we don't. We have these periods where we can supervise workouts and let them throw. We can't teach, break down swings, throw bullpen sessions, or operate any type of fall team. On top of that, we only have participation from those that want to attend, and those that aren't playing other sports.

 

We have a month before the season starts to make things mandatory, and that's it. That's why the summer is so critical...it's a chance to teach...football has a much larger window that it allows....why should baseball be any different?

 

One final comment. I do understand why players would want to play for travel teams. Get to see the state/region. Get to choose who you play with. If you don't get along with teammates, you don't have to be around them. I get all of that. But you do have to understand that as coaches, our emphasis is on the team and improving the team. We balance that by recruiting our players and letting them know about showcases. Our job is to mold young men and ultimately, win. Working together gives us a better chance to accomplish that goal.

[9diamondhounds]

The philosophical points of this arguement could be batted back and forth indefinitely. So maybe coming at it from a practical angle would make more sense. Perhaps the high school coaches need to look at the situation from a travel team managers standpoint. Most travel seasons would go something like this - there would be a tryout in the fall open to anyone from anywhere with an interest in playing. The coach/team would explain the commitment and benefits of playing with their team and look at the players to see if they would fit into the program. Beginning sometime in January, the manager/coach would book the team into tournaments on the level at which he felt they could be competitive, send in entry fees, and if overnight stays required they would set up accommodations. Under the current situation, on the date of the first tournament sometime shortly after the high school state championship he might be informed that 10% of his team would be unavailable because of a high school requirement. He might schedule a double header and find out that 2 or 4 pitchers had thrown earlier in the week against a cross town rival. I am sure most high school coaches would not enjoy dealing with these situations and because of the influence that they will over a players high school career they don't have to. Unfortunately, like many things in life, this issue comes down to power and money. My concern is that the players and their parents control neither. If we could be assured that no matter what high school you attend or who coaches it, he would take individual interest in every player and promote them to the highest level their skills allow then there would be no need for choice. But as it stands, one thing is clear, any high school coach can require any player to play according to his schedule year round save for those periods deemed dead by TSSAA. And further, he can require his parents to fund this effort with no accounting or oversight. TSSAA has set up this controversy by keeping the high school coaches away from their teams during the fall. There is very little for a showcase or travel team to participate in during these months and would be a perfect opportunity for school coaches to instruct. I believe the underlying motivation for TSSAA schedule was probably based on other sports like basketball. But it has the net result of putting baseball in a no win situation. If a coach wanted to open public facilities and bring himself and his staff in to teach skills of the game during the fall I would be glad to pay for uniforms, umpires and any other overhead. But the summers give those players who would like to branch out from the box a school coach from necessity may have to put them in (pitcher only, corner infielder, etc.) a chance to try to become the player that they invision themselves to be.

[columbiaguy]

The problem is that you are coming from a biased opinion. You assume that elite travel ball is better than playing for your high school in the summer. Maybe in your case, with the high school your son attends, that is true. Here is my problem with travel ball. Most teams charge at least $1,000 to play and you might get 30 games. Also, those coaches have nothing invested in the players. If a pitcher goes out and throws 150 pitches and gets hurt, oh well, at least we won. Then the high school team is punished because that coach is just in it to win games. There is also less discipline on travel teams. I have seen kids roll in about 15 minutes before the start of the game, throw their stuff on, and go play. That is not the right way to do things and the kid learns bad habits. Also, there is nothing prohibiting a high schoool team from playing travel teams in the summer. I know Columbia played the Donelson Cardinals and went to the 18U Sandlott World Series and the 17U Sandlott World Series and their kids paid a lot less than ANY travel team would charge. Also, playing for these travel teams does not get you more exposure. That is a misconception. The college coaches are going to watch the good players regardless of where they are playing. Columbia has put a lot of players in college and have kept their high school team together for the past 10 years. Last point, if the better players stay with the high school team it does a few things to benefit everybody. the younger players can watch how the better guys do things and learn from it, and the colleges coaches that come watch the older players also get a chance to see other players on that team that they may not have otherwise seen. It does nothing but benefit the program to keep them all together. And if you were wondering, i played a year of travel ball in high school as well as playing with my high school team. I didn't want anyone to think I had never expeienced the alternative so why should I speak on it.

[davidlimbaugh]

Ditto Columbiaguy! I see both formats from a personal basis. I help with both each summer. I help my high school summer teams and I help when I can my friends' travel team. Discipline is a great point. One thing that probably frustrates my friends running a great summer travel program is the lack of commitment and discipline of some of their kids. What do they have as leverage? NONE. Their parents paid good money for them to PLAY, not sit on the bench. And with no worries about playing time next spring with their high school or college team what other leverage do they have?

 

As far as quality of play, I would compare our high school's summer schedule with any travel teams schedule - some headlines:

 

Murfreesboro Warriors win 17u National Division!

07/11/2009

SANDLOTT Mid-State 17u News: Coach Barry Messer's Murfreesboro Warriors have won the 2009 17u regular season championship for the SANDLOTT Mid-State National Division. Congratulations to all the Warrior players and the entire coaching staff.

 

After pool play, we were the #1 seed in an 18-under international tournament,

 

http://www.sandlotter.com/TSchedule.aspx?tid=15

 

We play my friends' summer ball team each year - and I think we have a winning record against them - LOL!!!

 

We play East Cobb teams and travel to Memphis and Kentucky and Florida and other places to play quality teams.

 

The second best thing about keeping a high school team together in the summer is that it keeps the parents together. The best thing about keeping the team together is that it is a great teaching and testing environment before you play games that really count in May. And Columbia Guy is right, exposure comes if you can play. They will find you.

[StealthBuster]

A parent that alows ANY COACH, Travel,High School... etc to throw their son 150 pitches should be beat. Period

[columbiaguy]

Don't think it doesn't happen. I have seen it too many times.

[dogonedog]

Murfreesboro Warriors win 17u National Division!

07/11/2009

SANDLOTT Mid-State 17u News: Coach Barry Messer's Murfreesboro Warriors have won the 2009 17u regular season championship for the SANDLOTT Mid-State National Division. Congratulations to all the Warrior players and the entire coaching staff.

 

After pool play, we were the # seed in an 18-under international tournament

 

 

 

They should be congratulated for their success but the Sandlott league is not strong. Also, being number 1 seed in a tournament does not mean a thing. I never concern myself with how my teams finish in pool play. We win ninety percent of the tournaments we play and hardly ever finish in the top two. Pool play is a good place to work on things. Winning is not everything. Getting better is.

 

As it was said before, playing school ball may be beneficial to the kid that does not have an elite travel team to play for. Those kids may not be as advanced, therefore have nowhere to play. The school team may allow them to develop their talents. Some kids develop later than others. The more advanced kids need to be challenged too!

[ksgovols]

First, I guess I'd want to know what 'elite' is. Don't they have TBCA showcase teams, etc that showcase the elite players in regional and national tournaments? If you're not on one of those, how elite is your travel team?

 

I think you can have the best of both worlds if you play your cards right. Pitching is the biggest problem. You get out of it what you put in it as a player and a coach. I think summer programs should be categorized as National, Regional, Statewide or Local. Whichever level your team can consistently compete, is how 'elite' your program is. The best 18U Little League team in Florida is going to beat most anything Tennessee can throw at them. It's all about perspective.