Umpires, yes umpires

[formerbobcat]

Found this from an old email about a situation in a game. Thought it was kinda funny.

Score was 5-3 at the time. We batted out of order and our guy got a base hit with 2 outs. our next guy comes up and fouls one off then the opposing brought it to the umpires attention. according to rule 6.07 article C once a pitch is thrown it's too late to be called out. The umpire ruled us out and inning over. Wrong ruling. We even tried to tell him the rule but he didn't change. He had time to put us back on first and an 0-1 count which is what he should have done before the next half inning started. His hat said TSSAA. He should know better. Please send this to all umpiring crew chiefs.

[Vol33]

Go back and read Alcoa vs. Stone Memorial 3/20/2013. Stone up by four runs, Alcoa has bases loaded with one out. Pop fly to shortstop dropped, runner from third scores. That much is correct. Runner on second stays but runner from first goes to second, batter is on first. Runner at second takes off for third and is tagged out. Should have been the end of the inning as both teams exit the field and Alcoa sends out its defense. Home plate ump or ump wanna be says he called infield fly, no one heard this call. It is the correct call though so batter or runner at first is out two. This is where it gets tricky though, with two runners standing on second the lead runner tries to make third and is thrown out. Out three right? Somehow, with two runners occupying second base the home plate ump declares he had called time out, while ball is live. He then proceeds, after questioning by Stone Coach, to put the runner back at second base and runner from second back to first. Alcoa then scores on a hit. Strike zone became nonexistent for four Stone pitchers yet the Alcoa blocked pitches for strikes. Perhaps the poorest officiated game I have ever seen. Alcoa fans were apologetic it was so bad. They had the tenth and eleventh man that day. It happens.

[ksgovols]

It's 'This one time at band camp' phenomenon.  Most games call themselves, but there's a few quirky things in baseball where you have to know the freakin' rules.

 

The infield fly rule can't just slip your mind. 

 

I think the batting out of order rule is there because you can't have do overs or fix stupid.  Who doesn't know the batting order?  It's usually posted on the dang dugout wall and there's 2 score keepers minimum keeping  score.  You should never bat out of order first and second, it should never make it to the next pitch if you do.  It's not the umpires job to keep up with the score or the batting order.  Competent score keepers prevent this.

 

Here's one.  Infield at edge of grass, batted ball hits baserunner beyond the grass.  What's the call?  Or baserunner standing on first base and gets hit with a line drive.  What's the call?  Does the tie go to the runner on a bang bang play?

[voltnh]

Infield at edge of grass, batted ball hits baserunner beyond the grass.  What's the call?

 

 

This can be a type of interference.  If I'm reading your situation correctly, this particular play is nothing. If the ball passes all infielders and the umpire judges that no fielder no longer has an opportunity to make a play on the ball, no interference can be called. 

 

baserunner standing on first base and gets hit with a line drive.  What's the call?

 

 

If the ball hits him in fair territory, he is out.  It is dependant upon the ball's position relative to fair/foul at the time he is hit (It is conceivable that a runner on 1st or 3rd is hit over foul territory while still in contact with the base).  The only time a base protects a runner from a batted ball is during an infield fly situation.

 

Or   Does the tie go to the runner on a bang bang play?

 

 

It is extremely difficult for a human to accurately judge a tie with any consistency given the speed at which things are moving on a baseball field.  Umpires are taught that there are no ties, even though they may be physically possible, although very rare.  However, if you want to get into advanced baseball theory, the way some rule codes read, a tie goes to the runner at 1st base on a batted ball when the batter-runner has not yet acquired 1st.  In all other cases, a tie would go to the defense.  Again, this is extrapolated from the way some rule books are worded.  The game never did intend a tie to be considered. 

 

 

 

.....His hat said TSSAA. He should know better......

 

Yes, he should.  But sadly, that isn't the case with most TSSAA umpires.  Speaking as someone who has umpired baseball at several levels, including TSSAA, the lack of rules knowledge is astonishing, especially when you consider how much these guys are being paid.  Sitting in training sessions, I have been, on more than one occasion, shocked at the level ignorance surrounding the rules by veteran umpires.  Frankly, it is an insult to those of us who have taken the time to learn the rule book and the craft of being an umpire.

Edited September 24, 2013 by voltnh

[ksgovols]

1.  No call on a batted ball hitting a baserunner after it passes an infielder.  It doesn't happen very often and when it does there's a good chance the call will be blown.

 

2.  Yeah.  I used first instead of 2nd or 3rd because the baserunner would likely be in fair territory when on the bag, but not necessarily.  Always in fair territory on second and you should always be in foul territory when on 3rd.  I also shouldn't have limited the batted ball to a line drive.  A grounder that hits a baserunner in fair territory is an out too.  BUT.... if the infield is in and the batted ball passes an infielder (not the pitcher) before it hits the baserunner standing on a base in fair territory, the baserunner is not out.  It's the same as #1.

 

3.  No such thing as a tie in my book.  As an umpire I'd never utter that sentence.  I have told a base coach  it wasn't a tie when asked, which is a canned response.  It's a bang bang play.  Not a bang play.  Just make a call.  It's a judgement call, not a rule book call.

 

Rule book for the fans.  Umpires almost always know these:

 

A.  Home plate is in fair territory.  Hitting the plate with a batted ball means nothing unless it then goes foul before reaching 1st or 3rd base.

 

B.  Hands are not part of the bat.  They're part of your arm.

 

C.  There is no infield fly rule with a man on first only.  I don't know why.

Edited September 26, 2013 by ksgovols

[catsbackr]

This can be a type of interference. If I'm reading your situation correctly, this particular play is nothing. If the ball passes all infielders and the umpire judges that no fielder no longer has an opportunity to make a play on the ball, no interference can be called.

 

 

 

If the ball hits him in fair territory, he is out. It is dependant upon the ball's position relative to fair/foul at the time he is hit (It is conceivable that a runner on 1st or 3rd is hit over foul territory while still in contact with the base). The only time a base protects a runner from a batted ball is during an infield fly situation.

 

 

 

It is extremely difficult for a human to accurately judge a tie with any consistency given the speed at which things are moving on a baseball field. Umpires are taught that there are no ties, even though they may be physically possible, although very rare. However, if you want to get into advanced baseball theory, the way some rule codes read, a tie goes to the runner at 1st base on a batted ball when the batter-runner has not yet acquired 1st. In all other cases, a tie would go to the defense. Again, this is extrapolated from the way some rule books are worded. The game never did intend a tie to be considered.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, he should. But sadly, that isn't the case with most TSSAA umpires. Speaking as someone who has umpired baseball at several levels, including TSSAA, the lack of rules knowledge is astonishing, especially when you consider how much these guys are being paid. Sitting in training sessions, I have been, on more than one occasion, shocked at the level ignorance surrounding the rules by veteran umpires. Frankly, it is an insult to those of us who have taken the time to learn the rule book and the craft of being an umpire.

 

It sounds to me like your association needs to get a lot better real fast!

 

You said "most TSSAA umpires". I don't believe that for a minute. MOST umpires work very, very hard at their craft and take pride in what they do. And, you insinuate high school umpires make a lot of money? $65 for a game ain't a lot of money. Leave work at 5:00 for a 7:00 game, get home at 10:00, that's $13/hour, that ain't much money genius.

Edited October 2, 2013 by catsbackr

[williamsoncounty]

It sounds to me like your association needs to get a lot better real fast!

 

You said "most TSSAA umpires". I don't believe that for a minute. MOST umpires work very, very hard at their craft and take pride in what they do. And, you insinuate high school umpires make a lot of money? $65 for a game ain't a lot of money. Leave work at 5:00 for a 7:00 game, get home at 10:00, that's $13/hour, that ain't much money genius.

 

No offense, but $65 for 2.5 hours work is $26/hr. Most Americans don't get paid for their commute to and from work.

[catsbackr]

Well, umpiring is not regular work.  Most people won't commute 1.5 hours to and from work, it's just not practical.  But umpires do this regularly.

 

$65?  All associations I know of are looking for new blood in their umpiring ranks.  Join up, strap it on, give it a try and see if you think it's worth the money.

 

The day will come when you see varsity games worked by only one umpire because associations can't find umpires to work them.  Watch and see, it's already happening in other parts of the country.

[ksgovols]

There's a couple of problems with umpiring middle and high school games.

 

You have to leave your regular job early to make it to the site if you work a 8-5 job.  If it's about money, you're better off calling summer league games with time limits or tournaments on weekends with multiple games at one spot or calling softball games which are the same money for about half the time.  I see JV umpires going away first or strict time limits on those games and middle school games.

 

Young umpires need good experienced mentors to teach them game management and how to keep a game moving.  Most controversies are created by making something bigger than it is.  The same day they had the obstruction call in the World Series, my 14U fall ball team had 2 of those in one game.  The first one was a judgement call by the experienced umpire on a pick off play that was still questionable.  Between innings I was discussing the obstruction call with both umpires and stated that mostly you see it at 1st or 3rd with the fielder being in the way for a runner that's going to the next base.  Young guy calls it the very next inning on a single where the runner bumped into the fielder coming back to first base when there's no throw to that base.  That's a no call.  Just don't say anything and keep the game moving.  Now, we have to stop play so that he can say it was obstruction but since there wasn't a throw and the runners intent was not to go to 2nd I'm not awarding a base.  No call = game moving towards completion.

[catsbackr]

I get kinda defensive on these threads involving umpires, sorry.

 

You've got to WANT to umpire if you umpire.  It's not easy, low pay (I think), jeopardizing regular work, unappreciative coaches and fans, etc., you really do have to want to do it.

 

The comments about "most TSSAA umpire...etc." is almost always a bunch of crap.  The umpires I know, and I know a lot, strive to do the absolute best job they can, period.  And for that, I thank them!

[ksgovols]

I've been in every pair of shoes on a baseball field.    I gave up the umpiring because of bad knees.

 

Umpires do not care who wins or loses.  They keep track of balls, strikes and outs on that indicator.  They make notes about substitutions and pitching changes in case that comes up later.  Scoreboard is for innings and score.

 

Umpires miss calls.  The sooner everyone comes to the realization, the better off everyone will be.  Good coaches don't spend inordinate amounts of time arguing judgement calls.  It's an exercise in futility.  Fans are fans and they wear rose colored glasses.  Most can't coach or umpire and few could play.  Everybody needs thicker skin when it comes to dealing with fans.

 

Umpires hold grudges.  They are human and they have personality conflicts with certain coaches.  Easily fixed.  Some associations give coaches some fixed number of blackballs they can use.  3 is one I'm familiar with.  At the beginning of the season, head coaches can put up to 3 names on that list that they don't want to call their games at home.  It's telling if a coach has umpires on there that nobody else does and if the same couple of guys keep showing up on everybody's list.

 

It is a thankless job but it's also a great way to stay in the game.  I made way more friends than enemies umpiring and a lot of great stories and good memories.  Most coaches get along famously with umpires and vice versa.  But I agree with catsbckr.  Strap it on and get a good taste of it. 

[voltnh]

I stand by what I've said.  I've sat in too many meetings, training sessions, and have seen so much stuff in games, all by veteran umpires, that is just wrong.  It isn't a personal attack and, yes, most do work very hard and I have personal relationships with most whom I've umpired with.  Still, there is ignorance among umpires about rules and mechanics.  Again, that isn't a put down...it is just a word for lack of knowledge.  My concern is with the training provided to umpires.  It would be a different story if stupidity, where someone was taught and still does it wrong, was the issue, but that isn't the case.  And no, this problem isn't specific to high school.  I've witnessed it everywhere I have worked as an umpire, including national and international tournaments that I've had the privilege to work.  

 

I umpire because I love the game.  If I was in this for money, I would do the travel ball thing, which I personally don't touch and never will.  Whenever I do a local rec league game, I give the money back to the program (That isn't a holier than thou statement, they need it more that I do).  I do believe $65 is too much for an umpire to make to do a high school baseball game.  Especially when most schools don't even cover their expenses from ticket and concessions sales from Baseball (said expenses include umpire fees...2 @ $65 for each home game).  Throwing more money at umpires isn't the answer, as we've seen game fees increase but the problem persist.

 

I want to see the quality of training improve.  I do what I can by working with umpires, especially younger ones, before and after games.  But this needs to come from the top in order to effective.