Impressive Style of Play

[mack6]

A friend of mine sent me this video of one of our east TN high school teams..... I just watched it and thought it was impressive, so I decided to post it here. I personally have never seen a high school team, anywhere, play this "tiki-taka" style of soccer and thought it was interesting. I have seen plenty of "possession" style teams, in various ways. But never this - recently made famous by Barcelona / Spain - in high school.

 

Anyone else play like this?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohYCGb6IppY

[mack6]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1a_uSt-d6w

 

I just found this one..... it is better. It is a season highlight video, where the 1st one is just one game..... this one is not as long either (and has music).

 

Also worth noting... this is a mid-level soccer program who did NOT play a difficult schedule last year. IMO, style of play prob wouldn't have mattered for Seymour, in terms of where the season ended. I know they didnt get out of region, not sure about district. I know nothing more about them, apart from what I saw in these videos. I just know its an impressive style of play. Wonder of any of the high-level programs could/should play this style?

[MoonDogRex]

"Could / Should". It depends.

 

Tiki-taka is probably a misnomer and a stretch -- many clubs throughout the world play a tight-passing, possession-oriented style like you see here. However, La Masia inculcates a special form of this philosophy into its players from the age of 7, and those who grow further into the Barcelona system play something very, very different from what you are watching in the video by the time they are high school age. Tiki-taka can only occur when a team plays an extremely high pressure form of defense, and the one-touch passing system in the attack is designed to pull apart opposing players from their preferred organization - to create the opportunity for penetrating passes. It's some pretty complex stuff, and it can't be taught in its truest form over the course of three months' worth of afternoon practices.

 

Despite that technicality, kudos to the Seymour coach for trying to get the players to emulate a style. That is truly an educational endeavor, and as such the Seymour players will likely come to appreciate the game even more than they did before playing for their team. As you acknowledge, it's probably easier for them to play this way against weaker teams. You can only play the teams you're scheduled against, but Seymour was bounced from the first round of regionals 4-1 by Dobyns Bennett, so at some point the short-passing, possession game didn't work.

 

And therein lies the rub. Unfortunately, high school soccer in the US is often plagued by the quick-fix mentality (necessitated by absurdly short seasons) of playing direct, fast, and physical. Couple that with what are often narrow fields, and attempts to play the "beautiful game" are often overwhelmed. I don't think this is the fault of coaches, necessarily, but the constraints are significant. Thus, when a high school coach is trying to get his kids to actually "play", it should be commended. I watched Franklin play this past spring, and it was wonderful watching them knock it around and patiently look for opportunities instead of trying to force them.

[mack6]

"Could / Should". It depends.

 

Tiki-taka is probably a misnomer and a stretch -- many clubs throughout the world play a tight-passing, possession-oriented style like you see here. However, La Masia inculcates a special form of this philosophy into its players from the age of 7, and those who grow further into the Barcelona system play something very, very different from what you are watching in the video by the time they are high school age. Tiki-taka can only occur when a team plays an extremely high pressure form of defense, and the one-touch passing system in the attack is designed to pull apart opposing players from their preferred organization - to create the opportunity for penetrating passes. It's some pretty complex stuff, and it can't be taught in its truest form over the course of three months' worth of afternoon practices.

 

Despite that technicality, kudos to the Seymour coach for trying to get the players to emulate a style. That is truly an educational endeavor, and as such the Seymour players will likely come to appreciate the game even more than they did before playing for their team. As you acknowledge, it's probably easier for them to play this way against weaker teams. You can only play the teams you're scheduled against, but Seymour was bounced from the first round of regionals 4-1 by Dobyns Bennett, so at some point the short-passing, possession game didn't work.

 

And therein lies the rub. Unfortunately, high school soccer in the US is often plagued by the quick-fix mentality (necessitated by absurdly short seasons) of playing direct, fast, and physical. Couple that with what are often narrow fields, and attempts to play the "beautiful game" are often overwhelmed. I don't think this is the fault of coaches, necessarily, but the constraints are significant. Thus, when a high school coach is trying to get his kids to actually "play", it should be commended. I watched Franklin play this past spring, and it was wonderful watching them knock it around and patiently look for opportunities instead of trying to force them.

 

Wow... Very, very good info here. Easily one of the best posts I've ever seen on coachT.

 

I'd like to see some video of other TN high school teams of the past who play a pretty game. My time to search is limited right this minute. But I did come across this video, which I watched way back when it first appeared on YouTube. This is as far from the beautiful game as you can get (no offense to these players, of course), and is frustrating to me. No "small field" excuse here.  And for the teams who are generally considered the top programs, most of these schools have "real" soccer fields these days anyway, and don't play on football fields as much as they used to.  So I'm not really a fan of that excuse.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2vTV_x92l0

[MoonDogRex]

That's the stadium field at Siegel. 120 x 80. And those kids are just mashing it down the middle or dribbling needlessly. Agreed that it's ugly. Stopped watching after about 60 seconds.

[speno]

That's the stadium field at Siegel. 120 x 80. And those kids are just mashing it down the middle or dribbling needlessly. Agreed that it's ugly. Stopped watching after about 60 seconds.

Now now, let's not get on our high horses here! Needless dribbling, I am sure the Brazilians would have an issue with that! There was some good play , maybe a touch direct but some excellent phases were evident.

 

Not everyone has to emulate the Tika taka philosophy, lots of different ways to play. See the Bayern and Barca semi final last year. Tika taka got wooped. I must admit the Seymour video was impressive.

Edited January 1, 2014 by speno

[SoccerInTennessee]

I agree with everything stated, but you have to look at it from a coaches perspective as well. They have a 3 month season to win as many games and advance as far as they can in state. The time frame doesn't allow for much development technically the way club does. Therefore, coaches will resort to any tactics that give their team the best chance to win. Do I completely agree, no. But I can't argue with that either. There have been a lot of teams that have won state championships with lesser teams who park the bus and play long ball with two good forwards. A weak international team with a star up front, which there are a lot of, are not going to try and play toe to toe with Germany or Spain. It wouldn't work. Part of a high school coaches job is to make the best meal with the ingredients they are given, so to speak.

 

Now, if my son or daughter had a club coach with this philosophy, it would be a different story. Club soccer, in my opinion, should not even be concerned about winning games until high school age. Winning should be something that comes as a result of player and team development. If high school had a longer season where the could train together as a team, yes I feel like a prettier brand of soccer should and would ensue. But until that occurs, which it won't, I understand teams taking various tactics to win games.

[speno]

Agreed soccerintennesse.

[ridges82]

I'd like to throw a bit into this discussion.  As someone who was born and raised in east Tennessee, played soccer most of my life, follows the high school and club scene to some degree, and has followed FC Barcelona pretty closely over the last 5 years or so, this thread caught my eye.

 

First:

 

 

Not everyone has to emulate the Tika taka philosophy, lots of different ways to play. See the Bayern and Barca semi final last year. Tika taka got wooped. I must admit the Seymour video was impressive.

 

This is a great point.  I believe youth soccer in the United States has grown so much in recent years, especially in Tennessee, that we are finally beginning to see what we've been seeing in other sports: various styles of play (i.e. spread vs wing-T in football, or run-n-gun vs slower, half-court set type of basketball).  This has surely been more evident in club soccer, given the generally more advanced coaching (I said 'generally'); but I believe we're seeing it more in high school these days, as we're seeing more and more high school coaches who grew up playing the game, and in some cases, people who played in college and beyond.

 

This is definitely a good thing, as players are being taught various styles of the world's beautiful game.  And no single style is always going to beat one that is completely opposite - as we know there are no absolutes in this game.  However, there is something to be said about "tiki-taka".  It has been largely successful for several European Clubs (not just Barclona), and of course Spain's success with 2 Euro's and 1 World Cup in the last 5-6 years.  Has it run it's course?  Have people found a way to beat it (2013 Confederations Cup for Spain, and last two Champions League semi finals for Barcalona)?  Time will tell.  I know that FC Bayern has done well with it this year (Pep Guardiola now the coach).  There was a time very recently where one of our own NCAA teams - University of Akron - was very successful with this style under coach Caleb Porter.

 

I will bring the discussion back to the local youth level now, in addressing this part:

 

I agree with everything stated, but you have to look at it from a coaches perspective as well. They have a 3 month season to win as many games and advance as far as they can in state. The time frame doesn't allow for much development technically the way club does. Therefore, coaches will resort to any tactics that give their team the best chance to win. Do I completely agree, no. But I can't argue with that either. There have been a lot of teams that have won state championships with lesser teams who park the bus and play long ball with two good forwards. A weak international team with a star up front, which there are a lot of, are not going to try and play toe to toe with Germany or Spain. It wouldn't work. Part of a high school coaches job is to make the best meal with the ingredients they are given, so to speak.

Now, if my son or daughter had a club coach with this philosophy, it would be a different story. Club soccer, in my opinion, should not even be concerned about winning games until high school age. Winning should be something that comes as a result of player and team development. If high school had a longer season where the could train together as a team, yes I feel like a prettier brand of soccer should and would ensue. But until that occurs, which it won't, I understand teams taking various tactics to win games.

 

Would "giving their team the best chance to win" not include training a very detailed, creative, ball and off-ball movement, side-to-side, possession-oriented style of play (possibly dubbed "tiki-taka", possible some other term, misnomer or otherwise)?  Not every time, or for every team, of course.  But molding this style over a few years (not just 3 months) is possible.

 

I am pretty familiar with east Tennessee high school soccer.  Somewhat for middle and west, but not enough to say too much on tactical identities.  I watched the "Top 20 Plays" video for Seymour.  And I watched some of the 2011 State Championship between Hardin Valley and Science Hill.  I'd like to make a few comments about these in finishing this post...

 

First, the Seymour video is impressive to me.  I have never seen a high school team attempt such a drastic version of possession soccer.  Using the tiki-taka label here may be a stretch, but it is definitely the closest thing I've seen to it at the high school level.  Albeit, quite slow at times, and it is very evident that some of the competition is weaker, still pleasing to the eye.  My take on the success rate for Seymour last year is this: would you make the argument that they would have advanced further and had a more successful season with a more common, direct approach?  I may be a bit biased with my love for watching FC Barcelona over the years, and their distinct style, but I enjoyed watching this video much more than I would "Top 10 goals," or the like.

 

Much of what SoccerInTennessee said in their first paragraph can be argued against with this video.  As I said, I believe I am pretty familiar with east Tennessee high school soccer, so I'll say this with some confidence: Seymour High School, to my knowledge, has very few "high-level" club players - especially when compared to other high schools.  So, in pointing to the 2011 State Championship video - a person arguing for "play whatever style earns wins" type of thinking would probably say, "well, both of these teams play very direct, and both made it to the championship game, so it must work".  My response would be: did either of those teams play a team, at their level (with many life-long club players, etc), who played a tight possession game?  I doubt it.  And for the 2013 Seymour team, most will agree the team with more talent, regardless of style, will win 8 of 10 times.  I believe this team probably had very little chance to advance to the state tournament.  What I would like to see is one of our historically dominant high school teams in east Tennessee (or anywhere in TN) adopt a type of tiki-taka style of play, and see its success rate then.

 

Much of my thinking on this topic derives from this blog that I've recently started following: http://blog.3four3.com/  But, once again, not everyone has to play this way.  I would just like to see it a bit more, at youth levels.

 

This is an interesting topic for this message board.

[SoccerInTennessee]

Ridges, I agree that the true test would be for a top level team to consistently play this style. I never wanted to imply that a team couldn't play this style, I simply meant to say that coaches will adopt tactics they believe will give the team the best chance to win. Whether you think differently about what they choose is another story. I think the Seymour video is honestly fairly irrelevant. In comparison to most of the teams Seymour plays, they are I'm sure much more technical. In comparison to strong teams in the state, Seymour is fairly average. Under high pressure, the success is not the same.

 

Just because a team in a final played more direct doesn't mean they played that way all season either. Chelsea didn't play 10 behind the ball against poor premier league teams the year they won the CL. Teams changed based on who they play, unless you are the best like a Barcelona where everyone is so concerned about you. This relates back to watching a great high school team do it.

 

Anyways, I think we are nitpicking at minor details here in certain instances but it is a great topic to see and read about. I really liked reading your points. In college, we played a very possession oriented game in our conference but we were one of the best teams. Out of conference against some top 25 teams( ACC, Big East, etc teams), we played more reserved.

 

Most successful high school coaches I talk to change their formation and tactics each year based on personnel. In college, you can recruit to play a certain style. In high school you have who walks your hallways. It's hard to consistently play that style. No reason a certain team can't with the right personnel, but it's a tough thing to maintain. And I think only 3 months of training in it is difficult if you have never been exposed to it.

 

Glad to be able to discuss this with everyone!

[ridges82]

SoccerInTN, you make some great points.  The Chelsea analogy is a really good one.  Overall, and generally speaking, they play a pretty balanced style.  They are capable of keeping the ball against weaker competition, but needed to play super direct against Barcelona in the CL.  I remember seeing both Science Hill and Hardin Valley play a game or two each, within the 2010 and 2011 season, and never remember thinking either played all-out kick ball, so-to-speak (although still pretty direct, generally speaking).  Under the pressure of a championship atmosphere, it's much easier to revert to kick ball.  It would be nice to see some of the best teams in our state focus on keeping the ball, even in big games.  That is purely a personal view, I will admit (to your "thinking differently about what they choose" statement).  But I also can't help but point out that there has been some proof of this style being successful, throughout the world.  

 

I would like to see progress in the United States in general (that blog I referred to earlier focuses a great deal on this), toward playing good soccer, vs putting so much reward in the bigger and faster (the athletes) and playing what they often refer to as "jungle ball" (super direct).  I'm going to be honest, I don't see much of true possession soccer around here.  Some in club soccer, very little in high school.  I'm talking about true possession soccer - building from the back, moving the ball through the keeper, side to side, patience in the attacking third, lots of 1 and 2 touch, etc.  The main thing I was getting at earlier, and I know I ramble and maybe didn't do a great job of it, was that it was refreshing to see a team play this way.  I simply think we need more of it, as it shows a better brand of soccer; and shows progress being made at the high school level.  Which brings me to my final point...

 

I really disagree with your statement about the Seymour example being irrelevant.  I think, from what I saw in the video, this is anything but irrelevant.  I believe it is pretty commendable that a team with such a low rate of high-level club soccer experience can actually play that way; and again, is refreshing to see.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is much more to playing this way than the alternative.  Anyone can mash the ball down the middle of the field, and dribble aimlessly (to steal a line from MoonDog), right?  I know some about Seymour's opponents in those videos, and I don't believe there was always a noticeable gap in technical ability.  And I would say definitely not a gap in athletic ability.  I looked at some of their opponents from the 2012 season, and Seymour lost to several of the teams who they are playing keep-ball against in those videos from 2013.  You're right, they're very average players when compared to the state.  No argument there.  They would surely be smashed by any of the top teams if they tried that style of play, or any style.  But some of those teams they're playing against, I believe, are at a very comparable talent-level. I also remember reading where Seymour had an exchange student from Europe last year who score 50-something goals.  It would have been really easy to just hoof the ball up the field in his general direction as your main tactic.  But maybe his, and the team's goal-scoring actually benefited by playing a solid, "team" soccer type of tactic? 

 

I suppose one of my first thoughts upon seeing this thread and that video was, if Seymour can do that against teams of similar talent, can one or two of the high-level teams make it effective at that level?  Obviously in order for anything like that to happen, the entire idea and system would need to be planted within the program.  And I believe it's a long term thing; again, not only 3 months.  In using the Seymour example, I do not know the ins and outs of how this played out over time, but I'm fairly sure their coach has been there for a few years.  I do think there are some restraints in high school soccer which make this whole idea difficult - things that have been mentioned several times already.  But I think where we may disagree is just HOW difficult.  There is a quote from the blog I've been reading:

 

“Doesn’t matter what level the team is. If it’s an ‘average Joe American’ team … well, you’re usually competing against other ‘average Joe American’ teams. So in time, you should be able to execute.â€

 

I don't know.  I've been reading this blog, and other similar material like crazy lately - it is very possible that my soccer thinking is warped by it. LOL.  But yeah, various styles of play will work.  I'd just like to see more of this, that's all.

[mack6]

Ridges, you might be right. Thinking may be a bit warped. Ha! But I do appreciate that style of play as well. And I agree with what I think you're trying to say about the Seymour video being even more evidence of what is possible, given the lack of club soccer there.

 

I'm glad this is being discussed. It's a good off-season topic to kill time. I get tired of the usual private school vs public school, or which ref gave what card, and so on.