Philosophy on stalling

[CoachDelgado]

I have read on a few posts about stalling being called or not being called. Everyone has different opinions about how it affects the match. I am asking for opinions on the subject and now will offer my opinion.

 

Stalling called properly is what our sport needs. It alleviates the boredom and increases the action. Stalling is the same early in the match as late in the match. It just seems to not be called early on as officials let the wrestlers work their way into the match. Then, later in the match if the score is close, some referees look to call stalling to keep the match interesting. People feel that stalling penalty points are outside influences to a match, points that weren't really earned by the wrestler. I disagree completely. If the red wrestler is working his butt off and the green wrestler is backing up and blocking out or clamping on to an arm, green is in violation of the spirit of the rules and philosophy of the sport and should be penalized. The lack of stalling calls negatively influences a match just the same as a referee attempting to tie things up late for entertainment value.

 

It also needs to be looked for in blowout matches. In high school we were wrestling a dual meet tournament and trailing by 3 going into 275. The other wrestler did nothing but stall but was never called for it. Our guy won by 5 or 6 and we tied. We lost on criteria. All matches are important as far as team placing or dual scores.

[locomotivebreath]

I pretty much agree with you on the subject coach.Hey,it shouldnt matter if a kid is winning or losing,if hes stalling,he should be penalized for it.

[dragonwrestler]

I agree with you Coach Delgado, but I also think that stalling is pretty big part to winning a match. If a wrestler is up by 3 points and is on top with 30 seconds left, obviously he would stall. It would be pointless to cut him or try and turn him unless you needed the pin. I know some people might disagree with this, but ultimately they would just end up "appearing to be working on top" which essentiallly is the same as stalling.

[best_of_the_west]

The only thing I don't like about the stalling call is that no two refs call it the same way. Many wrestlers who wrestle out West and have gotten used to the stalling calls made by West refs go to tournaments in Middle or East Tennesse, and the refs will call stalling much quicker or won't call it as quick. I know there is a certain time period after which stalling should be called, but it's never completely consistent.

[walkenvol]

CoachDelgado - Good thread - no question that stalling is the most inconsistent call in the sport demonstrating a lack of proper training. The official's associations should commit themselves toward a greater emphsis on consistency among their group. Most would argue that stalling is strictly a judgement call? What about the 5 seconds to attempt to return an opponent to the mat? Could there be other concrete examples that could be adopted that constitute stalling? How long should a wrestler be allowed to pursue a tight waist/far ankle from the top? How about a automatic stalling call the 3rd time a wrestler leaves the mat from neutral to force wrestlers more toward the middle of the mat? Think how much this would remove the dead time of resetting in the center from the match. While I'm not advocating sumo, something more should be done to penalize the wrestler playing the edge of the mat. How long should the top man be given to turn his opponent with the cross body ride? How about 10 seconds and then move onto something else if your unable to make progress. How about an automatic stalling when the bottom man stands and the top man puts in the cross body and jumps up on the back of the bottom man to force the potentially dangerous call from the official? It strikes me that by adding 5 to 10 specific examples of stalling to the rule book it would effectively cover 2/3rds of all the stalling. This might remove some of the "judgement" which has always varied wildly from official to official.

[love4thesport]

to start with all of you have made great points to stalling. the main thing that hangs me about it is when the score is close and the guy winning rides it out to win by two points. if he rides it for ten maybe fifthteen seconds ok but a half a min. the wrestler is scared to loose and needs to penilized for being affraid to wrestle. your given six minutes for reason not five and then one minute to stall. these kids need to be in tip top shape and be able to go for the six minute and try to score the whole time not just until they get up by one point and can run to avoid the lose.

 

i feel that the jumping on the back in a cowboy ride to avoid an escape when your oppenent try to stand up, this needs to be penalty on the top guy, maybe not right away but caution then a point. there a to many ways to bring a guy down from behind him to mounting up to get a restart.

 

the tight waist far ankle is classic ride used to stall out the end of a match. but it is also a very good ride to break you oppenent down.

 

i feel overall that if the top man can't score in one minute of ride time they should be brought back to there feet without a score change. if you can escape or reverse in one minute your probably not going to be able to in two minute and vise versa.

[sundancer]

Coach D - Great Topic! This is probably the most frustrating for me because I've been around freestyle and greco. When we start the school season and watch these guys back step and evade the mat for two periods, obvious stalling in my opinion and they never even receive a warning. Then in the 3rd period there are all the stalling calls! It's also very aggravating when the one evading the mat takes the longest amount of time to come back to the center. Most of the coaches in my area fuss at their guys for not hustling back to the center, regardless of which role they were in.

 

I think it would be great if the coaches/referees would come together and define scenarios of stalling and publish them in their handbooks. I agree it would at least create a baseline of when to begin to call the warning and when to begin penalty points.

[walkenvol]

Bump back to the top. This topic deserves more discussion.

[reftn]

Easily the most subjective call in wrestling?

 

Stalling is as much a part of wrestling as a half nelson. One perhaps should be a part of it, the other should not.

 

But the rules ALLOW for stalling. The rules dont allow for flagrant misconduct. The difference I am drawing is one violation is so severe the match is ended, the other is penalized in accordance with the penalty chart in a progression that leads to disqualification. So we could remove 99% of stalling from wrestling. But do we want to?

 

In prematch meetings with teams I point out to them that the rule book tells you not only what you cannot do but what you CAN do. And one of those things is take a warning for stalling, it costs you nothing. Just like a false start, you get two of those for nothing. (I dont point out THOSE specifics in prematch meetings).

 

The wreslter in the advantage or offensive position is expected to work towards a fall. A fall. Pin. So, if he is going to hold the defensive wrestler in a near fall position only to let him up after securing three points, is this not, by rule, stalling?

 

In the neutral position, sometimes this is difficult to acertain. Forearm blocks are both a means of stopping an opponents momentum but also a means of not exposing yourself AND a means of hanging on the head, therefore stalling. All of this is highly subjective.

 

So the NHSF Case book should read like this:

 

From the neutral position, wrestler A may use his head/forearm to block wrestler B twice in a series then the third time is stalling. If wrestler B attempts a reshot the board is clear and is allowed another two blocks. And of course, if a taken down is secured, you start again.

-------------------------------------------

Now define what is truly a "shot". I have had coaches tell me their wrestler had shot 4 times to the other wrestlers 1. In fact, the four "shots" his wrestler took were worthless, no risk. My philosophy, no RISK no SHOT. Very subjective.

 

I do follow the five second return to the mat rule. The five seconds is in my head. The wrestler in the advantage position must ATTEMPT to return his opponent to the mat within that five seconds. All the while, his opponent is trying to finish the escape. What is an attempt, and what is maintaining control to get to that attempt? The advantage wrestler must lift? Trip?

Also, the wrestler in advantage must keep his opponent on the mat. If the defensive wrestler continually stands up, the advantage wrestler could be stalling.

 

So what do we say then? After the third successive stand up by the defensive wrestler with no offensive move by the wrestler in advantage, automatic stalling?

 

This doesnt even scratch the surface on the subject. I could type here in book, chapter and verse form for a while.

 

Wrestling is such a sport of "FEEL". Control is often felt rather than observed. Stalling is another that is often felt, not so apparent. As an official, if you are getting it 50% correct, chances are you about right because the other 50% on the other side of the mat thinks you're wrong.

 

Let me reiterate, the warning for stalling is free. It is there to WARN the wrestler the official is observing something in his behavior he should change or risk being penalized.

 

The best coaches and fans can hope for is consistency. If it were stalling on my wrestler it will be stalling on the other wrestler. Fans, parents, and coaches will see anywhere from 4 to 10 officials during a season, and more during states. As an official, I will see probably no less than 200 and up to 400 wrestlers during the season. Who should adapt to whom?

 

Keep in mind, we can eliminate stalling from wrestling, but at what cost?

 

Sorry this is so long.

 

reftn

[sly]

reftn, Great post!

[CoachDelgado]

Good post reftn. Now here is another question. I can live with the double stall call in nuetral, but I feel that that a double stall call with one wrestler in control is ridiculous. I have seen it numerous times. If the top man is stalling, he is effectively shuttting down the bottom from scoring. The bottom may not be trying that much, but circumstances show that an effective top staller can make the bottom also appear like he is stalling. If there is a possible double stall on the mat, my feeling is you stop the match , call it on top then reset the wrestlers. If after the restart the bottom is not attempting an escape or reversal, then hit him after 10 or 15 seconds.

 

I still contend that knowing when to call a stalling warning/penalty is important to the flow of the match. A no-call is just as influential as a penalty called. As the rule book states, stalling must be eliminated from wrestling.

[walkenvol]

So we could remove 99% of stalling from wrestling. But do we want to?

 

Keep in mind, we can eliminate stalling from wrestling, but at what cost?

 

reftn - interesting perspective, but I miss your point of the positive aspect of stalling that warrents allowing it to remain a common practice in wrestling? Is the downside to eliminating stalling the increase in the size of the rule book addressing the issue? Even the most casual fan enjoys a match loaded with action and the most diehard fan is bored with the matches lacking action. The most popular thread on this board recently was concerning popularity of the sport. Why did the NBA install a shot clock? Because a lack of action/scoring was hurting the marketability of their sport.

 

First off, enforce the existing rules concerning fleeing the mat to avoid wrestling. I have seen this called 1 time this entire season by Ken Mara at the McCallie Inv. I have not seen a dual meet where it didn't happen at least once or twice. Why are refs so hesitant to call it? Nowhere in the rule book is the out of bounds line defined as a safety zone in which to flee at the sign of danger.

 

Without writing a novel of a rulebook to address what is and is not stalling, how about calling a few commonplace stalling tactics to eliminate 50% of all stalling?

 

1. Backing out of the center of the mat from neutral. If you do this in freestyle it's pacifity. Force wrestlers to stay in the center of the mat. It is safer, it will eliminate much of the dead time involving the restart procedure, and it will allow the aggresive wrestler more space to complete his moves.

 

2. Leaving the mat. Again this will award the aggressive wrestler. Some coaches agrue that in some circumstances this places their wrestler at a disadvantage, so be it. If your in the center, then there is plenty of room to go where ever is to your advantage. Create negative circumstances for playing the edge of the mat.

 

3. Force the top man off the hips and demand that he either attempt to pin or submit the escape.

 

4. If the bottom man makes no significant attempt to escape, allow the top man the option to return to neutral without awarding the escape point.

 

 

What do you think?