Philosophy on stalling

[reftn]

Walken,

 

If you are going to quote me...quote the context as well.

 

We a can absolutely create a 99% reduction in stalling in wrestling. We didnt want flagrant misconduct, so the penalty is swift and decisive. That was the extreme of my point. To far to the extreme I think. Again I ask, are we willing to get to the 99% through means of disqualification? We as fans want more action, this would decrease the action overall and greatly shorten matches. BUT...you would have all but eliminated stalling, the desired result of the action. True?

 

So the question...at what cost?

 

I will post to this again....Christmas thing to attend now..!

 

Merry Christmas to all!

 

reftn

 

Back...second post....

 

I like your points 1 - 4...

 

1. The wrestling area is 28 feet. The inner circle is ten feet. As a wrestler, I am entitled to 28 feet. As an official I must allow wrestling in 28 feet. To your point, I must determine there is actually wrestling going on, not the avoiding or wrestling and certainly not the "playing of the edge" that allows a cowardly wrestler to opt out of the wrestling area to avoid the takedown. This is burgeoning on fleeing.

As a wrestler I should be blind to mat area and markings as well as blind to the clock. Wrestle until I hear a whistle.

 

On the edge of the mat wrestler A sweeps and lifts the leg of wrestler B, leaving him hopping on one leg. What I have is wrestler A (with his back to the ten foot circle) holding the leg of B, and wrestler B between A and the out of bounds line. In order to break the hold, wrestler B has but one escape route, to leap away from wrestler A, in hopes of freeing his leg. His leap takes him out of bounds, I blow the whistle. Is this fleeing?t

If this occured in the center of the mat, would it change anything?

 

2. Leaving the mat area, I am assuming this would mean literally walking out of the 28 circle, and an obvious violation. Sometimes on the optional start, coaches taught their guys to walk to the edge of the mat, to the line, and turn to face his opponent, if the wrestler in advantage stayed in the center of the mat, the defensive wrestler is either stalling or avoiding wrestling, a violation. I have handled this two ways. If given sufficient time to turn and face his opponent, I have awarded the escape then allowed the immediate takedown. Also have awarded fleeing for the defensive wrestler stepping over the 28 ft line.

 

3. Hip riding is bad, agree. Leg riding is a close cousin. No one likes better to see a good leg wrestler more than I do. With the good ones, it aint stalling.

Without legs, it is nearly impossible to turn a man without coming off the hips and getting perpendicular with a half or face cradle etc....so, tying up with arm bars, spirals, without coming off the hips would indicate riding. The defensive wrestler helps an official alot with constant work, showing the offensive wrestler has no intention of coming off his hips.

The easiest stalling call I make is when the offensive wrestler has double legs in...makes an attempt or two at turning then looks at me directly with his hands upward as if saying "He wont let me turn him". duhhh.....I guess not, warning top man is stalling.

 

4. The bottom wrestler must make attempts to improve his position. He does not have to expose himself, also if he is being overpowered by the offensive wrestler, that is taken into consideration. Sometimes its all he can do to counter the assualt. But he cannot ball up with arms tight to his sides to prevent the offensive wrestler from his attempts.

 

I can type it out to perfection, if I could only CONSISTENTLY call that way.

 

reftn

Edited December 24, 2003 by reftn

[best_of_the_west]

Stalling is a part of wrestling, and I believe that if you have built up a lead big enough to sit on, you should have the luxury of "playing it safe". If you are willing to risk you lead by giving up stalling points, that is your choice. However, there needs to be a clearer and easier to call definition of stalling.

[reftn]

Jose,

 

I have a hard time living with double stalling anytime. If only for the consequences in later periods. Like someone said, sorta like kissin yer sister?

 

Totally agree with you on the control issue. It is to the offensive wrestler to initiate the action to secure a fall. It is to the defensive wrestler to improve, but not expose or give himself up. In this situation, the offensive wrestler must be working and I am looking at him for stalling. Is he stuck to the hips? Holding spirals? How much risk is he showing in order to turn his opponent? For God's sake dont let me see you looking at the clock.

 

(WALKENVOL, read here please)

I think a rule change where if the offensive wrestler is warned for stalling, his opponent is awarded an escape and they go neutral. If it happens again (in position of control), his opponent is awarded an escape and a penalty point (2pts). I bet if the defensive wrestler stands up, he is either IMMEDIATELY taken back to the mat or released for an escape to avoid the five second return.

Go to NO warning for the defensive wrestler stalling, 1pt immediately. I think that is fair because in the position of control, not quite as much is required of him, so the stalling would be very obvious. He loses one step in the progression of the penalty chart.

This could have dire consequences as you look at Overtime and tie breakers.

Suddenly, stalling is very distasteful. This might bring us closer to elimination of stalling without too radical a rule change.

 

What are your thoughts on that?

 

Good thread.

 

reftn

Edited December 24, 2003 by reftn

[cbg]

If you guy's want to know what stalling is, just talk to Shack & Morgan. They must know the rules pretty well because everyone say's that they stall but very few times are their wrestlers called for it.

[mtnrasslin]

cbg-

 

Interesting you bring that up. I watched a lot of Baylor kids wrestle last weekend at McCallie and I can recall very few of them taking a step backwards. In the finals Baylor had some losses but I saw agressive wrestling. In years past there have been references to the Baylor stall. What is that?

[luchador]

In the past, they would get to the edge of the mat before attacking. If they didn't like the situation they were in, they would take the action out of bounds. McCallie has a mat made with a 32 fot cicle just to make it obvious to the officials they were heading to the edge. They are wrestling more aggressively in the center of the mat more so than in the past.

[BigDogDaddy]

Along the same vein of speeding up entertainment is STALEMATE. The last two years I have seen this situation go on longer than need be. It too, is judgemental, reftn or coach care to comment on it? What circumstances need to exist and for how long before this call is made. Is a stalemate ever confused for stalling and if so why?

[reftn]

Stalemate occurs when neither wrestler can improve his position. Normally, this occurs when each wrestler is holding the other in a position where not only can they not improve, but to do so would be to give up control (from the top) or possibly nearfall (from the bottom). Alot of times I will call a stalemate with legs in and the offensive wrestler cannot turn his opponent and the defensive wrestler is busted down onto the mat by the hips. I will generally let this stalemate occur twice. The offensive wrestler should read this as he better go to something else. Stalling is around the corner.

 

reftn

[mtnrasslin]

luchador-

 

McCallie bought a special mat just to highlight Baylor's stalling? Did it win any matches?

[best_of_the_west]

I was reading an article a little while ago about how Westside was using some old Raleigh-Egypt mats from the 80s or something and another second-hand mat for practice, because they couldn't afford new mats. It's kind of ironic that they had the only state champ from region 8 last year. I know that's off the subject, but I was just thinking about that when I noticed that McCallie bought a special mat just to emphasize Baylor's stalling. No offense to McCallie or anything, it's just unfortunate that a program with that kind of potential works within such meager means. Sorry for getting off the subject.

Edited December 27, 2003 by best_of_the_west

[luchador]

I can't confirm it since I am not in the Chatt area, but that is the rumor. It was many years ago. They needed a new mat anyway and decided to have a 32 foot circle instead of a 28 foot circle. I doubt it was just for the one dual meet against Baylor.

[walkenvol]

reftn - been away from the computer. Wasn't attempting to misquote, just to understand your POV which you clarified with the disqualification vs penalize approach to eliminate 99% of stalling. IMHO, continue with the disqualification process with some modifications to make stalling less judgemental. You referenced the procedure you follow for an ineffective leg rider of 2 stalemates then a stalling warning. Sounds reasonable to me, why not write it into the rule book so that all officials would make this a consistant call. I still contend that if 5 common stalling practices were written into the rules it would effectively address at least 50% of all stalling. Your example of a wrestler giving up a single leg at the mat edge with his only defense being to go out of bounds is another good one. Penalize him for fleeing the mat. Called consistently, this would make it very advantagous to wrestle in the center. Hang out near the edge and bad things could happen. Your suggested rule changes sound good also. I think its time that the folks that change/modify the rules address this issue.

 

I don't know who you are, but how many times have you called fleeing the mat this season? I challenge all officials to review this rule and how it should be applied. Tougher enforcement would go a long way toward improving the action of matches.

 

botw - I differ with you on this one, stalling is not part of wrestling per the rule book today regardless of the score. Stalling is a blight on the sport and greater measures should be taken to eliminate it.

 

cpg / luchador - my son has competed against numerous Baylor wrestlers over the past 4 years and none of them have played the edge of the mat or ran in an attempt to avoid the pin. They all competed hard and fought to score throughout the matches. McCallie sees Baylor more then anybody and I've observed the exact opposite of what you infer.