Kentucky's Proposition 13

[itzme]

Here's a link to get anyone interested started. Remarkable similarities to the TN situation in 1996. This would be very destructive to HS athletics in KY, as it was in our fair state, IMHO.

 

http://www.bluegrasspreps.com/showthread.p...?threadid=28874

 

There is more discussion on this throughout the BGP football board.

Edited January 12, 2004 by itzme

[rockmom]

If Trinity and X wanted to play for the state championship, they'd have to stop offering financial aid.

 

IMO, this won't happen. Simply put, to do so would contradict the mission statements of each school, and personally, I'd be extremely disappointed if they did. Again, though, I think X & T would leave the KHSAA, rather than submitting to such a rule.

 

NOW, what happens after that? Well, there've been several possiblities kicked around. One thing is sure, Trinity and X would have to look out of state for competion. There simply aren't any other private schools in the state of KY the same size as these two. X has ~1400 boys, and T has ~1200. The next largest is in northern KY, but I'm not sure which one that is. But I do know it's several hundred fewer in number of students than T & X.

 

Of course, I guess they COULD compete in an in-state Private league, but I don't see how that would be fair, given the numbers advantage.

 

Some have hypothesized that this could be the advent of athletic scholarships in the private schools. Currently, financial aid is awarded based on financial need, by an out of state third party. Only Academic scholarships are available to award.

 

Some believe that Trinity and X will need to go at least regional in their play. Some supporters of the proposal have stated that they feel the financial implications of this move would force Trinity and X to submit to the proposal rather than incur those expenses. Others have pointed out that by not being a part of the KHSAA, there are actually many opportunities that may exist on the financial side of the issue.

 

I know that there are ideas being kicked around even as we speak.

 

The vote by the membership of the KHSAA on this proposal is on Thursday, the 15th. Each member school gets a vote. If it passes, it will go to the Board of Control for a vote. I think in both processes, it's a simple majority. I may be mistaken.

 

MBA fans...do you think you guys would be interested in a long home-and-home series?

[gobigred]

rockmom,

 

I, for one, would love to see a long Trinity - MBA series. As more states struggle with the P/P issue, the incentive for financially established private schools to form multi-state alliances and possibly leagues is much greater.

 

There seems to be more and more interest from the local and national media to televise high profile high school football games. It is very possible that if a super southeast private school league was formed that included the major players from KY, TN, MS, AL, GA, SC, NC, and perhaps northern Fl, could at least break even financially if TV and internet broadcast contracts could be established. Teams like De La Salle and Evangel Christian are televised often.

 

This would have never even been considered a few years ago, but the anti-private sentiment prevailing in the the public school associations coupled with the increase of the public awareness of the national landscape in high school football due to the USA Today natonal rankings and ESPN coverage adds a new option for the higher profile private schools.

 

Sure would be some great football!!

[rockmom]

Agreed, gobigred! I'm of two minds about the KY proposal. One part of me says, NOT FAIR! YOU CAN'T DO THAT!

 

The other part of me says, let it happen! This could be the best thing to happen to the private schools in years!

 

The the thing that keeps me from saying, "bring it on" is that really, only a few schools would be able to take advantage of the "reginoal" concept. Most of the others are too small, and many struggle every year to keep the doors open. Schools like Trinity and X will be fine, but I don't think it's right to move on and leave the other privates to fend for themselves.

 

What a quandry!

[gobigred]

Schools like Trinity and X will be fine, but I don't think it's right to move on and leave the other privates to fend for themselves.

 

What a quandry!

I know what you mean here. The unfortunate thing is that the public schools far outnumber the private schools and the desire of the publics to split will never end.

 

Private schools that cannot not participate in a regional league would eventually have to form a league of their own in each state in all likelihood. That is a sad fact, but there really aren't many other options in the long term. It may still be a few years, but the publics will eventually force the privates out all over the country IMO.

[rockmom]

gobigred...let me ask this question. Some of the supporters of the KY proposal think this will cause public schools to gain the better athletes...meaning if a family can't pay the full tuition @ Trinity for instance, one of the public schools in Jefferson County will get that athlete. Or, that it will cause some who are already enrolled & playing @ Trinity to leave and go to another school.

 

I really only have experience with MBA, as far as TN teams go. Have you guys lost players? Or is it a different situation altogether since you guys are still in the TSSAA? Or, is it still too early to tell?

 

You guys seem to have some incredible teams there. Is it a matter of having the better athletes (a la the allegations of public/private split supporters), or is it the ability to take average players and motivate them to extraordinary heights?

 

I just went to Trinity's football banquet yesterday, and the coaches talked about the fact that this team wasn't the most "talented" or "athletic" or the "biggest". But what set them apart was their unwillingness to give up, the grittiness, and the willingness to make the sacrifices needed to overcome their obstacles (i.e. being outweighed by an average of 30 lbs by opponnents, not being the fastest, but making the DB's think you were, keeping composure, extra time in the weightroom, extra time practicing fundamentals, switching positions, etc. )

 

I just wonder if separating the privates and publics really has any effect on "leveling" the playing field. I can't seem to get any supporters of the proposal to answer that question. Everyone uses it as an excuse for the proposal, but no one will directly tell me how they think this will do that.

Edited January 12, 2004 by rockmom

[gobigred]

gobigred...let me ask this question. Some of the supporters of the KY proposal think this will cause public schools to gain the better athletes...meaning if a family can't pay the full tuition @ Trinity for instance, one of the public schools in Jefferson County will get that athlete. Or, that it will cause some who are already enrolled & playing @ Trinity to leave and go to another school.

 

I really only have experience with MBA, as far as TN teams go. Have you guys lost players? Or is it a different situation altogether since you guys are still in the TSSAA? Or, is it still too early to tell?

 

You guys seem to have some incredible teams there. Is it a matter of having the better athletes (a la the allegations of public/private split supporters), or is it the ability to take average players and motivate them to extraordinary heights?

 

I just went to Trinity's football banquet yesterday, and the coaches talked about the fact that this team wasn't the most "talented" or "athletic" or the "biggest". But what set them apart was their unwillingness to give up, the grittiness, and the willingness to make the sacrifices needed to overcome their obstacles (i.e. being outweighed by an average of 30 lbs by opponnents, not being the fastest, but making the DB's think you were, keeping composure, extra time in the weightroom, extra time practicing fundamentals, switching positions, etc. )

 

I just wonder if separating the privates and publics really has any effect on "leveling" the playing field. I can't seem to get any supporters of the proposal to answer that question. Everyone uses it as an excuse for the proposal, but no one will directly tell me how they think this will do that.

rockmom,

 

The description of this year's Trinity team by their coaches mirrors a description of the MBA football team. We seldom have a physical advantage over the teams we play. For instance, the offensive line of our championship team two years ago averaged considerably less than 200 lbs. per man. The major factors in winning in high school football are coaching expertise and personal discipline by the players. Innovative coaching and well prepared, motivated players will almost always win over predictable schemes and raw, undisciplined athleticism.

 

I doubt that any kind of split will change the makeup of your team or X's. I also doubt that the Catholic Church will stop giving need based financial aid to Catholic students who meet the qualifications of your financial aid clearing house. Most parents choose a private school education for their kids for reasons other than athletics. In the case of Trinity, I would assume that a Catholic education is the number one reason a parent would choose to pay for their child to enroll there.

 

At MBA, the emphasis has always been and always will be academics. Families choose our school because they want to provide their children with an opportunity to receive a premium education. Students who do not meet the academic criteria are not admitted, and students who do not perform in the classroom after they are admitted, regardless of their athletic status, are not allowed to remain, period.

 

In answer to your final question, a total p/p split does not level the playing field for the larger publics in any state. It just eliminates some of their toughest competition.

 

I do think that the small, rural public schools need some kind of classification revision to allow them to be competitive in Tennessee. After doing some study on 6 man and 8 man programs in TX, KS and ID, I wish the small schools would at least seriously consider that option. The games are very exciting and the coaching, roster and financial requirements are considerably less than those for traditional 11 man football.

[TheBigRedDog]

Great post, gobigred! My sentiments exactly.

[rockmom]

MBA and Trinity sound almost identical except for the admission process. There is a placement exam, but not an admissions exam.

 

The biggest problem, as I see it, is the number of counties in KY that have district boundaries that dictate where kids go to school. I think Jefferson County may be the only open enrollment school district in the state. I think that this is an enormous asset in schools as it offers not only a competitive environment athletically, but academically in the schools. They must compete with each other to offer what another school doesn't, and to offer quality. In addition, the Magnet School concept and Traditional Program concept are great as well, offering families further options.

 

In KY, many counties only have one school, and by enrollment standards fall into the 4A class. Some have barely enough kids interested in playing football, for instance, and are unable to compete. Those counties would in no way be affected by the inclusion or exclusion of private schools. The only schools that would be affected are the ones that are competing successfully with private schools anyway. The biggest benefactors would be several Louisville schools, and Western KY schools like Warren Central. Possibly Paul Dunbar in Lexington. Their team was really good this year, and the team Trinity beat to make it to the state game.

 

I know several supporters are considering the Tennessee solution as an example of the "success" of a split. To me, the very fact that there is a Public/Private forum on this site is testament to the fact that it is not a success.

 

I feel this proposal is discriminatory, and possibly not intended to pass as proposed, but to serve as a catalyst in narrowing down the path to a legal exclusion of private schools, and smacks of envy.

 

As to the size of teams, I could rarely identify players with positions when they were not in their football uniforms. When the players were called up by position to be recognized at the banquet yesterday, I was so surprised to see the true size of our Offensive and Defensive lines. Some names I associated with "Big" guys, were actually attached to kids the size of my own son...5'10 ~150-160 lbs! Not big at all!

 

Crazy! But they got it done! I know Dunbar outweighed our line by a good 30-40lb average. And you guys had a few VERY big guys (#50 sticks out in my mind!). But we competed with you guys!

[beethoven]

MBA and Trinity sound almost identical except for the admission process.  There is a placement exam, but not an admissions exam. 

 

The biggest problem, as I see it, is the number of counties in KY that have district boundaries that dictate where kids go to school.  I think Jefferson County may be the only open enrollment school district in the state.  I think that this is an enormous asset in schools as it offers not only a competitive environment athletically, but academically in the schools.  They must compete with each other to offer what another school doesn't, and to offer quality.  In addition, the Magnet School concept and Traditional Program concept are great as well, offering families further options.

 

In KY, many counties only have one school, and by enrollment standards fall into the 4A class.  Some have barely enough kids interested in playing football, for instance, and are unable to compete.  Those counties would in no way be affected by the inclusion or exclusion of private schools.  The only schools that would be affected are the ones that are competing successfully with private schools anyway.  The biggest benefactors would be several Louisville schools, and Western KY schools like Warren Central.  Possibly Paul Dunbar in Lexington.  Their team was really good this year, and the team Trinity beat to make it to the state game.

 

I know several supporters are considering the Tennessee solution as an example of the "success" of a split.  To me, the very fact that there is a Public/Private forum on this site is testament to the fact that it is not a success.

 

I feel this proposal is discriminatory, and possibly not intended to pass as proposed, but to serve as a catalyst in narrowing down the path to a legal exclusion of private schools, and smacks of envy. 

 

As to the size of teams, I could rarely identify players with positions when they were not in their football uniforms.  When the players were called up by position to be recognized at the banquet yesterday, I was so surprised to see the true size of our Offensive and Defensive lines.  Some names I associated with "Big" guys, were actually attached to kids the size of my own son...5'10 ~150-160 lbs!  Not big at all!

 

Crazy!  But they got it done!  I know Dunbar outweighed our line by a good 30-40lb average.  And you guys had a few VERY big guys (#50 sticks out in my mind!).  But we competed with you guys!

Size or the appearence of overwhelming size/strength/speed etc... isn't always correct. I watched the undersized/overachieving MBA team on film this year. They would have mopped up any team in the state with maybe Germantown having a chance to brute force them like they did Riverdale. De La Salle with the longest win streak in the nation has done it with lineman that are very much smaller than you would ever imagine for such a powerhouse. (

Edited January 12, 2004 by beethoven

[rockmom]

I guess, beethoven, that's the point I've been trying to make in my arguments with the supporters of the proposal.

 

They contend that by offering financial aid, schools like Trinity "lure" the best athletes to their schools. And, with the exception of Brian Brohm, our team was made up of ordinary kids doing extrordinary things. There are lots of tangibles, extra devotion by the kids to practice fundamentals on their own, extra time in the weightroom when they could have been out with their friends, coaching (which I'll put our coaching staff up there with the tops anywhere in the nation), and, yes, discipline. But the biggest thing you can't teach...that's heart and grittiness. I agree 100%, and that's why I object to the "premise" of the proposal, to "level the playing field".

[gobigred]

In KY, many counties only have one school, and by enrollment standards fall into the 4A class.  Some have barely enough kids interested in playing football, for instance, and are unable to compete.  Those counties would in no way be affected by the inclusion or exclusion of private schools.  The only schools that would be affected are the ones that are competing successfully with private schools anyway.  The biggest benefactors would be several Louisville schools, and Western KY schools like Warren Central.  Possibly Paul Dunbar in Lexington.  Their team was really good this year, and the team Trinity beat to make it to the state game.

 

I know several supporters are considering the Tennessee solution as an example of the "success" of a split.  To me, the very fact that there is a Public/Private forum on this site is testament to the fact that it is not a success.

 

I obviously don't know the facts of the Ky situation, but I would suspect that the Jefferson County schools and other big publics like Dunbar and Warren Central are the driving force behind the split proposal at this point. They have the most to gain by booting you guys out of the mix. Do you know if that is true?

 

The original split in TN was precipitated by complaints from some of the largest and most successful public schools.

Edited January 13, 2004 by gobigred