Gambler

No Name D, Thank you for responding to my post and making intelligent comments and points. ITs amazing how geography and construction change things. I think you brought in some interesting information and FACTS unlike many on this discussion. One thing I would mention is Alcoa and Maryville are great because of their coaches and players work as well. If one of those coaches went to William Blount or another Knoxville area school then that school too would rise in winning. Also I find it interesting like everyone knows all people want what is perceived or what is best for them. I think the Webb discussion is true and how the public schools that are not impacted don't hate private schools or want them out. This is why the TSSAA must make the decision which is based for all parties. Honestly Private schools playing in D1 are already making up for their bigger school zones by playing bigger schools. Private schools that choose to play in the public are not doing so because they want to intentionally break the rules and dominate. They are doing so because they dont want to be a financial aid d2 private school. They are playing by the rules and would like to continue to do so. Now I'm going to get on my soapbox for a minute and I would like to hear ND thoughts. People place private schools/open zone schools as the problem for getting athletes from other schools. In today's society most people don't want to take personal responsibility on decisions. THE PLAYERS AND THEIR PARENTS ARE STILL THE ONES CHOOSING TO GO TO THEIR UNZONED SCHOOL. No open zone/private school is forcing anyone to go there. Also I believe the school has to sign a release form of the student before they can transfer. Why don't people talk about the families who are making that choice to move? In the end its their choice and d1 private schools are not out scouting games for players. ND what do you think.

Don't try to put all private schools in the same pot. The d1and d2 private schools are very different. Also I don't see how upper keeps talking about d1 publics playing d2 privates. That isn't happening and is not a valid point. Also speaking of Giles county think about how great that rivalry has been with lipscomb and if teams were separate it wouldn't if happened. Ensworth and maryville have squared off as has ensworth and Oakland those were awesome match ups. I think everyone needs to step back and before things change look at all the impact. I do disagree one day the there will be a split and I think it's sad. Also it will probably be divided financial and non financial. So the schools that have been playing by the rules will continue to do so and I disagree publics will be raided. Also an interesting question why don't the other open zoned schools around Knoxville since that is the key to winning.

Upper it's funny that you will not respond to my posts. You cannot explain why Giles county Milan Huntington are closed zone schools and win. Also you cant show me a private school that is dominating to need a split but maybe since you want a split you also don't want to intelligently discuss with facts about sports with a private fan. Also Giles ex coach is the one that got caught recruiting how about that there is some of your own medicine. One thing I do agree with you on is we have to many football classes but you probably want that to get away from Alcoa. Also as for the 7 players from different counties in goodpasture volleyball I would like to see facts of that. Anyone can say all kind of hear say. Also a story for you sweet water tennessee is a school that is own the road from maryville. When lipscomb played sweet water in 2002 the star player for sweet water was the state title MVP for maryville the year before. Hmmm isn't that interesting. In the end in states there are dominant football programs for whatever reason. A few schools will always rule thus far trousdale, Alcoa, maryville, Milan, Giles county , red boiling springs, whitehaven, ba, mus, ensworth in their own league that doesn't affect public schools and other privates such as lipscomb CPA over the last 10 years have been in highly successful. Look at any state and the same schools are always in the running. Another thing I find interesting in your statements is you want all, public schools to be open enrollment. I'm never a fan of becoming what you hate but wouldn't that force public schools to recruit or try to retain players. Can you imagine a kid playing football at 4 different high schools in four year and win three state titles. That is a reality with open zone heck now public kids move into an apartment and keep their house Open zone would force publics to recruit because there is no guarantee of any is staying be careful what you wish for. If they did split I guess we would have to listen to how the more rural schools should have their own league and the city schools should have their own that is the next unlevel playing field.

My school is not kc never lived in Knoxville or knew anyone that went there. Also I believe they chose CPA because that is where they wanted to go. Just like many other athletes across the statethey wanted to go to a good basketball program. Those kids far,alies are paying their own way so what's the problem? I like open zoning competition makes everyone better. Schools shouldn't be punished for their success.

Red black 63 and upper man, I will respond to your question and since upper wont respond to my post towards him I will include him in this. First to upper. Do you think public schools don't push their schools to the general public? Williamson county schools are some of the best academically in the state and country. They put it on their website and in the paper and in mailings and at the chamber of commerce and materials you can pick up at the school. Metro schools do the same thing so I don't see how this is a private only thing to make your school attractive for people to join. Upper I bet your community/school don't put barb wire up and try to get people to not enter no you sale the strong points of your great community. Also upper why do close zoned rural schools like trousdale Milan Huntington win? Red honestly the reason the private schools are opposed is the ones in d1 do not want to be a financial aid athletic school. They are playing by the rules and if a student wants to come there and pay the that is their choice. They feel it is a level playing field with the multiplier is having schools with smaller enrollment play bigger schools with more students and athletes since they draw from a bigger zone. I think it has been very effective. I like dealing with facts and would one of you please answer this question. What d1 private school is winning at a high level to wear it is unfair and they do not need to play with the public schools please provide concrete examples. Red at lipscomb you dont see any urban kids attending so not sure where you got that.

Upper it's not a mute point when you say call out a man's integrity by saying that he did something illegal which coach Mac didn't do. It's fine for you to be judge and jury but not to prosecute. Anyhow you obviously have not read my posts. The tssaa has already addressed your issue about getting kids from a large area and that is called the multiplier. Private schools yes draw from a greater area so they play with bigger schools that draw from a greater area and have more students and more athletes. Your ensworth trousdale example is flawed. They will never play the tssaa has classifications for this and ensworth is in d2. Could you give me an example of an unfair existing match up of private and public. Trousdale did fine vs good pasture this year. East Nashville beat lipscomb. Milan beat CPA last I checked all closed zone and private schools. Alcoa beat cak. So I don't see your argument. Also if they did split what would happen to open zone schools that on paper have an even greater advantage than private. If privates did play in their own zone then people would complain about bigger schools beating the smaller schools. Always will be something to complain about. I would love to hear some of your answers or responses but I guess my statements are probably mute points

Lets be honest winning a state title is tough and it should be. And in the last 10 years far and away public schools have won more than private. the main reason I posted again is Ronnie carter who implemented the multiplier made the statement that multiplying schools wouldn't matter or change that the same schools would win or be successful. I think he was right. Also one thing I don't like about sides of this discussion is when people want to punish schools for having success. When a school wins many people's initial reaction is to say well they really won because..... Why can't it be they deserved it by the support of their community and players efforts with good coaching. Win a school wins they should be celebrated not punished.

Well you did say lipscomb did something wrong by recruiting which did not ever happen under glenn mccadams. That is what frustrated me. Lipscomb success is a result of a lot of hardwork and discipline those years. It is insulting for someone to try to discredit it with no information. Lipscomb could of scored 100 on Alcoa that night but coach Mac exhibited class and let off. Also your facts are off Alcoa got revenge next year against lipscomb in the 4th round it was the year after that lipscomb fail to Livingston in state finals. Then they lost to Fulton and then beat Fulton the next year. Coach mac earned those trips and wins by doing things the right way. On aside note after thrashing Alcoa lipscomb got drilled by a public school named Huntington. That public school had no problem beating the defending state champs and they have closed zone. Also Milan hasn't struggled to beat CPA with a closed zone. You didn't hear good pasture complaining when Alcoa beat them 3 years In a row about a level playing field. For several years maryville beat Hillsboro a school a few miles from lipscomb in the state championships. Hillsboro beat them once. Hillsboro lost their coach to riverdale to replace rankin. Then Hillsboro won another title and lost their coach and have been barely average since. Point in bringing this up is this. Hillsboro was as close to open zone as Nashville gets they go through a few coaching changes and bam the winning stops. The athletes went elsewhere some say they never left nonetheless the positive circumstances surrounding certain schools do not guarantee championships but the coaching talent work and discipline all must one together in a total package which rarely happens for a team more than one year.

Rankin left riverdale more than likely because it was time his program wouldn't have crumbled regardless. Also Alcoa could be losing some students due to open zone as well would be interesting to see the facts on that as well as how many players are playing football and making a difference. If they couldn't pay to play people would move into zones of good programs. This happens all over the state all the time. Honestly with the talent and tradition Alcoa has which they were really good before rankin the out of zone kids probably wouldn't matter they still would of been successful but the games may have been closer. Rankin took Alcoa to another level. Again if you build they will come or stay. Some programs have advantageous circumstances others don't Alcoa is one of those programs.

Not sure who liscomb is but that team that you refer to didn't have a starter or person that played significantly on the team that hadnt attended lipscomb since fifth grade. Also on offense the team returned 3 starters from the state championship team the year before and three on defense. You need to check your facts before you start making accusations. I challenge you to prove any wrong doing because I guarantee you won't find it. Unless you have proof I suggest you keep your mouth shut. Anyone that knows anything about Tennessee high school football knows the late legend glenn mccadams is the most honorable coach in state history and would never allow recruiting in any form to happen. You should be suspended from the board for this heresy. Also Alcoa got whipped on Saturday because they were to scared to play lipscomb on a rainy field the night before and waited to inform lipscomb until they were loading the bus. Alcoa was the team with the d1 prospects with the exception of Austin Rogers the wr that caught 5 td passes in the first half. Don't make excuses.

Good points but I think you also need to look at what else I said in my original post to discuss some of the things in your post. The TSSAA has ruled all private schools that play in D1 cannot provide financial aid to athletes thus they must pay their way. Therefore if a kid's parents want to pay to send him to a private school then that is their constitutional right. Secondly in response to drawing from a larger school zone privates have to play up at a higher level due to their larger school zone thus . As far as open zoning goes I or TSSAA cant help you there I like it because competition should make us all better. In the end people in Knoxville would move into Maryville and Alcoa district to play football if it was closed zoning. Also in reference to some schools regardless of coach could not beat other schools regardless of coach. I guarantee you this if Qualls, Rankin etc moved to pickett county in time they would greatly improve and compete for championships. Look at What Ron Crawford is doing. Well that goes back to the uncontrollable advantages or circumstances that exist. Some schools because of tradition location population etc are going to have a leg up or be better than others before the ball is kicked. Life isnt fair and all one can do is do the best they can where they are with what they got. Another argument is people always think city schools have an advantage well their is alot of competiion for athletes in cities like Nashville you have metro schools Williamson county schools and several private schools that are really good at sports. The talent can get somewhat diluted and Nashville does a pretty good job controlling transfers unlike other cities. The talent gets diluted or spread out. Where a place like say Giles County/Marshall County they get all their players though they have less to choose from. Also most private schools not all but most in D1 do not through tuition fund athletics. This is not a call for sympathy many privates rely heavily on booster club donations and fundraising and alumni donations to meet budget yes meet budget. Now many schools do build nice facilities but most tuition dollars are spent on school operations. In reality the majority of private schools do well to stay in black. Again not asking for sympathy because many public schools have the same issues. Lastly the whole purpose of high school athletics is competition and participation. Many schools know going into seasons know they wont win the state title but they still have great seasons. Now I like to win as much as anyone but when looking at this from a TSSAA perspective I think they are doing a really good job again they cant legislate against teams circumstances.

In the end regardless of the type of school if a program wins then they will ATTRACT athletes. How many losing programs get accused of recruiting public or private? NONE. If you build it they will come. People move into districts to be apart of winning programs or transfer to private schools. Conversely many more students attend a school for the school and simply participate in athletic programs. All schools are unique one situation is not like all the others. I for one am for private schools playing with public and open enrollment schools staying the same. TSSAA made two divisions so schools that give financial aid which is need based play in a seperate league. Therefore no advantage exists there. Also the private schools playing in the public division are multiplied up because they have a bigger school zone to draw from in theory. The TSSAA also added a class to level the playing field to make classes enrollments more even. What else could be done to make it more fair. All schools have different advantages over others through circumstance or intent / location both public and private. In Tennessee the following programs every year will be in the hunt for a football championship - Alcoa/Maryville/Milan/South Pitt/ Knox Fulton/Henry County/ Trousdale County. Why because of coaching/talent/emphasis and tradition/hardwork. No private school in the public league has a dynasty or consistent streak of dominance. Most schools have a good cycle of talent and then some down times both public and private alike. The Law of averages prevail and no one likes to lose. If a school is not winning they need to examine what they can do to improve and go from there. In the end thats why you play the game to find out who is best not just to win every time.

I looked at MUS and saw where they got blown out by BA. Defeated a poor Kingsbury team. Then got beat by a school in Arkansas called Pulaski Academy? I understand Pulaski Academy onside kicks every kick off and rarely punts. What happened in the other three games for them to lose and then play so well and beat South Panola? Just wondering of did South Panola have a bad night?

I dont think its fair to Peden to bring his name into the mix in this way. Nio facts exist for this discussion. Also Im not Peden so dont start accusing me. Also I believe at Goodpasture you must be church of christ this will limit the applicants dramatically. Good Luck I hope things go better in the near future.

Im not blaming the season on the kids or the coach. I think all parties did all they could do and should be rewarded for a great season. Lipscomb played tough this season and lost some really close games Goodpasture and Overton by 3, Maplewood by 6. One play different in those and they play Giles later in playoffs. In the game of football you have ups and down and sometimes you catch breaks and sometimes you dont. From what I saw Friday night Lipscomb just lost to the state champion again nothing to be ashamed of. The Lipscomb system and sucess speaks for itself. Lipscomb's success has all come as a result of only having 4 divison 1 football players: Rogers Brothers, Jonathan Shaub and Ethan Flatt. A handful of other played smaller college ball. Sometimes you meet a better team and that is what happened Friday night. Also my comments had no intention of slighting the kids this season. However with the laws of high school football some years you will have more talent than others. The only reason I made the statement is Lipscomb is young this year and has some more good classes coming up and so things are not going down. Two tough seasons cannot take away an entire program. You should know first hand how good the system is look how many times DL beat more talented GC teams? Congrats on the win Friday and the last time they met. Lipscomb has alot of respect for Giles County and I hope you have in return. Its a great rivalry with two excellent programs. On a side note since you decided to mess with me: I was glad to finally see a thread not full of inaccurate recruiting allegations. Maybe the reason for that is you guys got caught recruiting. Cell phones are dangerous things. (BTW seriously I am sure that was a one time incident and an unusual cirucumstance and Giles runs a clean program) Sorry I couldnt resist. So many threads of Giles fans accusations. Lipscomb does it right follows the rules always has and always will as long as Coach Mac is in control. Good Luck Next week.

Fred I think you should watch what you say. A coach who is top 5 in the state in all time wins should coach as long as he sees fit. Lipscomb like all schools has some down years but the talent will come back up. I dont think you should come on the board talking about a man's job and legacy. In the 2000's he took Lipscomb to 5 state championships. Lipscomb returns alot next year and with the new classification it should be a nice season for DL. Coach Mac will always maintain the support of a long list of alumni of ex players. He has been at Lipscomb since 1982. His record and reputation deserves and demands respect.

If they helped themselves so much then why are they dropping a division? My defintion of success is winning championships and competing for championships. Also your school enrollment growing. Light years ahead huh how many state titles has Lipscomb won in the last 6 years in all sports? How many has goodpasture won? CPA has won a few correct? These schools have been more competetive and their enrollments have all grown. CPA is booming. Lipscomb just laid plans to build a new high school and completely new athletic complex that is already paid for. Thats a great idea. Goodpasture is continued to stay strong and just hired a great new bball coach. So BGA isnt light years ahead of anyone. All those schools are bigger than BGA enrollment. Just face it BGA wanted to grow they built to big of facilities for too much money had to raise tuition and get all the doners to pay for it so money could not be spent else where and tuition couldnt be kept at a cost that working famalies can afford. All the wins you speak of are great but what happened last year with BGA's best team in the last 5 years? I believe it was a first round exit. True they were ready to play and get beat by the privates I will give them that. The other schools wisely stayed out of those divisions for the same reasons BGA is now dropping they are on a different level. Yes you can beat them a few times every once in a while but in the end MBA is MBA BA is BA etc. Coach Batten is a fine coach but let me know when he wins a championship in football and your athletic department gets the new facility paid off. FRA kind of is in the same boat as BGA. Let me say this BGA is a great school with great people and a great academic program and good athletics. However the facts are well the facts the numbers are well the numbers. Best of luck to BGA and I hope you dont run off your baseball coach.

What happened to BGA is similar to alot of the smaller private schools in the Nashville area. Where do we go from here? BGA rode the wave on the original opening of D2 private schools. They wanted to grow and develop and not remain a small 1A private school. So while the DCA, Ezell Harding, and Goodpastures enjoyed success in small public football when d2 began BGA played ball in the irrelevant league. In fact BGA quit playing Lipscomb and other non d2 private schools because they could not beat them. So they wanted to no longer be irrelevant so they wanted to step it up and play with the big boys and its not feasible. Bottom line their tutition is too high it alienates people in the Williamson county area from wanting to attend due to cost. I believe its $16,000 a year I may be wrong but its alot. Yes the facilities are nice in fact unreal but did they really need all that. Did things have to be that nice? Then you are faced with the dillema how do we pay for it? Dont get me wrong BGA is a great school with great people. Now back to what I mentioned earlier. Now all smaller privates are searching for that answer. CPA, Goodpasture, and Lipscomb continue to play in the public leage and compete pretty well even with the multiplier. I am sure that BGA would love for those schools and a few other to join them in D2 and form another division or conference. However here is what BGA may be missing? The travel is really expensive and not very many people are going to make the trip to the road games and the other fans are not going to come to BGA road games. Keep in mind they will have to drive the same distance to play a volleyball game (no offense) two hours is a long trip. Not to mention the time athletes will have to miss in school to make the trip to play a game. I guess BGA wanted to grow but they have not done so in total enrollment never mind athletics. So gate money will go down even more and travel costs will go up. People will still view BGA below the bigger boys which is fine but probably gripes some of the BGA faithful or what their original intent was in athletics. Should BGA have stayed the public ball route? Well then they would of had to quit giving aid. Maybe they have found the right answer but hey you get what you pay for? . Any chance BGA could play up in baseball and down in well football?

Being from Riverdale you should know all about recruiting

Here is how it helps football coaches and programs. To begin the region games are set and scheduled so that makes scheduling easier from the start. Secondly, Now coaches can schedule local teams for their non region games and not be penalized if they lose because they are scheduling a tough local opponent. Whereas in the current system playing easy non conference opponents is detrimental and if you lose lose non conference its also detrimental for the wildcard deal. In the end Pro football, College football, and most states have conference/region/divison games that count more than other games. This is for a reason. Now a coach can schedule close local non region games and deal with the travel in their region because their region games are closer. Someone is going to get the short end of the stick. In the end regardless of the system public or private open zone or not the same best programs in the state are always going to win.

I did not know that seeds had butts. Also Livingston Academy won a state title a few years back finishing the regular season at 5-5. I think its actually a benefit to play in a tough district because then you might meet eastier teams in the playoffs.

Interesting posts. Question I have is how many students go to school at JPII. More specifically how many boys? Also how many players were on the football roster?

Well a natural move would be to drop to the lower division of D2 which Ive heard their has been discussion of forming 3 divisions. Winning is the key some kids are always going to say if we dont win then why bother. Facilities are great from what I have seen and it seems like the commitment to the weightroom is their by the school dont know about the kids or if they have an athletic period. So I guess what the admin needs to do is hire the right guy for the job. A new AD should make things intersting for this hire. One question I would ask is what is the schools goal for the football program?

I dont know if they are the the problem but they definitely are part of the issue whether they want to be or not. They like many smaller privates trying to run with the big dogs either cant or wont make changes needed in order to compete. Father Ryan will always hurt JPII. Also JPII like other sports have lacrosee and other sports that take away from Football. A few of the better players over the past year or two have left JPII not because of Coach R but simply due to issues. Obviously coach Rutledge is a first rate coach and Jeff Brothers is having success at Nashville Christian. I dont know how many assistant coaches exist on the staff but I doubt anyone that will get the job. I dont have a dog in the fight just buzzing on a message board based on what Ive heard. However I am sure the pay is lucrative so that may make the job appealing.

They will struggle to get a quality canidate with the climate of football at the school.