15U AAU National Championships

[elitebball]

I saw the Fencor teams and Fairfax play, no team from TN was even close to their level of play.  Although, Fencor didn't play their best game and had to come from behind to beat Team Pride.  The TN teams would be able to compete for a national title they would consolidate their efforts versus being divided and making these types of post toward each other.  If I'm not mistaken Pat Summit and Geno were at every Fencor and Fairfax game, wouldn't it be great if they made these types of efforts to come see a team or young players from TN?

 

People and parents have to put aside their differences and LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE. 

 

I saw a post on the national AAU web site that stated that Fencor and Fairfax have had almost the same core roster since they were 10U.  Can anyone name one team in TN that has done this?  They have kept the BEST talented players on the BEST team with the best coaches.  This why they are always at the top, they have parents, players and a community that keeps focused on what it takes to be a National Champion and compete at Nationals.

 

Arguing amoungst ourselves will never get any team from TN there, it will only result in further division.

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As has been stated in previous posts, including yours, not every team has the goal of winning a national as their only goal. If these 2 teams(Fencor & Fairfax) have been together since they were 10u as you state, then no doubt it has been a positive experience for the kids and parents, and they have desired to stay together. It's great when it works out that way. Sometimes though kids and parents are not in a good situation and look elsewhere. When the ultimate goal of winning a national exceeds everything else, and leads to teams being able to justify forfeiting games to get a better path in the bracket, then it's time to examine what is most important. Winning at all costs also has an impact on kids being developed, because inevitably the kids who are developed and can help the team win immediately are the ones who get the playing time because winning is the most important thing. This prevents others from being able to develop, because it's more important to win than develop. Then these girls are tossed aside in hopes of finding better kids, all with the goal of winning. Your points contradict themselves, because for Tennessee to field the BEST teams for nationals, then teams would have to be broken up yearly because the kids who are the best at 10 might not be the best at 11, 12, etc. This formula also discounts team chemistry, and the need of teams at all levels to have role players. It's not fair to criticize the Pride and Shelbyville, as middle Tennessee is not the only part of the state where individual agendas are preventing coaches, parents, and kids from working together for the best interests of the girls and parents. I suspect Pat and Geno will be watching plenty of Tennessee teams and girls over the next few years as there is a ton of talent in the state. Hopefully we can learn to focus on all of the important areas of competitive girl's basketball, and not just winning a national.

[Sidetrain]

I have only heard good things about  Team Pride.  Sounds like you are very bitter about something.  Chris Brown is a class act and it sounds like you are calling him a cheater.  I believe you sound like a HOTMOUTH teen and not the all knowing adult you proclaim to be.

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I'm a parent of a 13 year old. It does not effect me if TN Pride does bad or Good. I hope that they do good for the State of TN. I do not know Chris Brown at all. If you say he a good guy that is fine. But someone's actions disappointed me in what they did for the State by not playing that game. If they can live with it that is ok.

 

I don't have a beef with anyone in that group at all. They (the teams I have seen play, play hard and well) If you feel I have a problem with someone you are incorrect. I just stated my thought about what I have read. If that hurt, you then I'm sorry you feel that way. I just don't feel that teams need to do what happen here IF they can help it.

 

One other thing I NEVER claim to know it ALL. But I have seen where teens have gotten on here and said things that was wrong.

 

Isn't it funny how we are still talking about this after everything has been over for about two weeks.

 

Good Luck to everybody teams this coming season thumb

Edited August 6, 2005 by Sidetrain

[Sidetrain]

As has been stated in previous posts, including yours, not every team has the goal of winning a national as their only goal.  If these 2 teams(Fencor & Fairfax) have been together since they were 10u as you state, then no doubt it has been a positive experience for the kids and parents, and they have desired to stay together.  It's great when it works out that way.  Sometimes though kids and parents are not in a good situation and look elsewhere.  When the ultimate goal of winning a national exceeds everything else, and leads to teams being able to justify forfeiting games to get a better path in the bracket, then it's time to examine what is most important.  Winning at all costs also has an impact on kids being developed, because inevitably the kids who are developed and can help the team win immediately are the ones who get the playing time because winning is the most important thing.  This prevents others from being able to develop, because it's more important to win than develop.  Then these girls are tossed aside in hopes of finding better kids, all with the goal of winning.  Your points contradict themselves, because for Tennessee to field the BEST teams for nationals, then teams would have to be broken up yearly because the kids who are the best at 10 might not be the best at 11, 12, etc.  This formula also discounts team chemistry, and the need of teams at all levels to have role players.  It's not fair to criticize the Pride and Shelbyville, as middle Tennessee is not the only part of the state where individual agendas are preventing coaches, parents, and kids from working together for the best interests of the girls and parents.  I suspect Pat and Geno will be watching plenty of Tennessee teams and girls over the next few years as there is a ton of talent in the state.  Hopefully we can learn to focus on all of the important areas of competitive girl's basketball, and not just winning a national.

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I have to agree.

[Spree1024]

You are missing the point of my post, to compete means you must develop. If there is no development you'll never be able to compete and/or win at any level, so I really don't understand your statements. Everyone develops at different times than others, some early, and some later.

 

Also, if a teams goal at Nationals is to not compete and not to win and they play against a team that's goal is to compete and to win, can you explain the outcome and the purpose of these two teams playing. I believe this defeats the whole purpose and spirit of the national championships.

 

Any competitive national level programs would disagree with your statements, competitive teams invite and look to develop players, not toss them aside. That is why they have 'A', 'B' and sometimes 'C' teams to develop players that may not be ready today, but have future potential. This format gives everyone an opportunity for success at their own rate and time. It's the parents who usually have the problems with this, not the players, and it's the parents who look for other places to play for their child. Both Fencor and Fairfax have developmental teams. This further facilitates team chemistry because each year they have a consistent core group and ADD to the team as needed or as players develop.

Role players are a myth, you need multiple players that can play, everyone cannot be a 'SUPER STAR' but they must have the skills and ability to compete. Fencor, Fairfax and Kenner all brought in players off their bench that could easily start for any other team at nationals, no role players there, just a team of girls and coaches that are not focused on 'winning', but know how to compete.

I'm not critcizing team pride, shelbyville or any other TN area, these are all fine programs, but it should be clearly obvious what is needed to compete at a National level, just look at the approach some of the other top level teams/programs use.

 

My thoughts;

 

Is AAU Nationals for COMPETITIVE basketball, or development for recreational and intramural basketball?

 

Is AAU Nationals about representing the state of TN at its best, or about parents and players using it to satisfy their individual agendas?

 

Any competent coach will tell you that 'winning' is not their primary focus. Winning is just a by-product of preparing and developing an athletic, fundamentally skilled and competitive team. 'Winning' at all cost is not the goal, it’s the hard work it takes to compete.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Spree1024

[elitebball]

You are missing the point of my post, to compete means you must develop.  If there is no development you'll never be able to compete and/or win at any level, so I really don't understand your statements.  Everyone develops at different times than others, some early, and some later. 

 

Also, if a teams goal at Nationals is to not compete and not to win and they play against a team that's goal is to compete and to win, can you explain the outcome and the purpose of these two teams playing.  I believe this defeats the whole purpose and spirit of the national championships.

 

Any competitive national level programs would disagree with your statements, competitive teams invite and look to develop players, not toss them aside.  That is why they have 'A', 'B' and sometimes 'C' teams to develop players that may not be ready today, but have future potential.  This format gives everyone an opportunity for success at their own rate and time.  It's the parents who usually have the problems with this, not the players, and it's the parents who look for other places to play for their child.  Both Fencor and Fairfax have developmental teams.  This further facilitates team chemistry because year-to-year you will have a consistent core group and ADD to the team as needed or as players develop.

Role players are a myth, you need multiple players that can play, everyone cannot be a 'SUPER STAR' but they must have the skills and ability to compete.  Fencor, Fairfax and Kenner all brought in players off their bench that could easily start for any other team at nationals, no role players there, just a team of girls that know how to compete.

 

My thoughts;

 

Is AAU Nationals for COMPETITIVE basketball, or development for recreational and intramural basketball? 

 

Is AAU Nationals about representing TN at its best, or about parents and players using it to satisfy their individual player development agendas?

 

Any competent coach will tell you that 'winning' is not their primary focus. Winning is just a by-product of preparing and developing an athletic, fundamentally skilled and competitive team.  'Winning' at all cost is not the goal, it’s the hard work it takes to compete.

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You leave out one important element. Every one of these girls and their parents is a unique situation and they will go to the situation where they feel they or their children will develop and enjoy the experience. Of course competitive basketball means higher level competition and there is a reason why there is a scoreboard on the wall. The higher level of play is an opportunity for the girls to improve. I would bet if you questioned all of the girls and parents involved in AAU, asking the main reason they are playing competitive basketball, the number one answer would not be to win as many games as we can and win a national. Certainly it is the ultimate goal for a team. But the commitment for AAU involves too much time and money to not consider all of the factors, not just winning. Parents are not in most cases the problem as you describe. They are your customers, and are the ones trying to do what is right for their child. Yes, some are unrealistic and become part of the problem. But most parents and children at the ages you describe are driven to play competitive basketball for more reasons than just winning. I agree that your formula, if everyone buys into it, provides the best chance for powerhouse teams and nationals success. As I said in my earlier post, it's great when you have the best girls all wanting to play on the same team with a goal of winning nationals, sacrificing perhaps starting roles on other teams to come off the bench for another. But is that really what is best at that time for that player's advancement, and do they enjoy it, which are the most important factors for most kids and parents. These all star teams seem to have a better chance of coming together when girls get to 15 and older and start getting attention from recruiters. It is a noble goal for organizations to want the best on one team, but the reality is you're dealing with people, not pawns, and they will determine what is right for them. You would no doubt do the same for your daughter as would I and anyone else. If an organiztion, as it appears Fencor and Fairfax have done with these teams, can provide the right coach and support where the girls and parents buy into the main goal of winning a national, I am confident teams as you describe will be formed.

[tnwareagle]

HA. Everyone can be mad against the Pride if they want to for forfeiting.  You can blame it on them being scared, tired, or their lack of dignity if you want, but the fact still remains that they played Fencor better than anyone else could have in that tournament.  If you want to you can give the Flight all of your dignity if you want to, but try and remember who gave Fencor a run and who got waltzed on. Obviously the opinion of all us common people really isn't what's important here,  but what the recruiters thought of the games that were played and the Pride played a good game. That's all there is to it.

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A loss is a loss. You can not compare scores. Flight tied for 9th position and advanced to the Sweet 16, something Pride did not. Could be that the difference in score was due to the fewer games that the Pride played. I don't know and don't have a horse in the race, but it beats me how anyone can condone forfeiting a game at any level, muchless in the national tournament. You should have enough faith in your team to NOT RUN from anyone. Regardless of how you look at the scores, Flight is wearing a Sweet 16 T'shirt and Pride is not. A TRUE competetor never runs from another team, nor do they BRAG about any loss. TRUE winners are not happy walking away with a loss, no matter what the score was.

[Spree1024]

You leave out one important element.  Every one of these girls and their parents is a unique situation and they will go to the situation where they feel they or their children will develop and enjoy the experience.  Of course competitive basketball means higher level competition and there is a reason why there is a scoreboard on the wall.  The higher level of play is an opportunity for the girls to improve.  I would bet if you questioned all of the girls and parents involved in AAU, asking  the main reason they are playing competitive basketball, the number one answer would not be to win as many games as we can and win a national.  Certainly it is the ultimate goal for a team.  But the commitment for AAU involves too much time and money to not consider all of the factors, not just winning.  Parents are not in most cases the problem as you describe.  They are your customers, and are the ones trying to do what is right for their child.  Yes, some are unrealistic and become part of the problem.  But most parents and children at the ages you describe are driven to play competitive basketball for more reasons than just winning.  I agree that your formula, if everyone buys into it, provides the best chance for powerhouse teams and nationals success.  As I said in my earlier post, it's great when you have the best girls all wanting to play on the same team with a goal of winning nationals, sacrificing perhaps starting roles on other teams to come off the bench for another.  But is that really what is best at that time for that player's advancement, and do they enjoy it, which are the most important factors for most kids and parents.  These all star teams seem to have a better chance of coming together when girls get to 15 and older and start getting attention from recruiters.  It is a noble goal for organizations to want the best on one team, but the reality is you're dealing with people, not pawns, and they will determine what is right for them.  You would no doubt do the same for your daughter as would I and anyone else.  If an organiztion, as it appears Fencor and Fairfax have done with these teams, can provide the right coach and support where the girls and parents buy into the main goal of winning a national, I am confident teams as you describe will be formed.

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Everyone is different and unique, that is why there are sports programs for everyone at every level. I am specifically talking about AAU Nationals and the level of skill, preparation, dedication and type of athlete it requires to compete at that event. I doubt if anyone that is serious about competing at the AAU level is not concerned about winning, Winning is a result the work ethic, effort and sacrifices made to achieve. You may not win but the progress it takes to win is where the value is. Winning is like ‘acing’ a final exam after a long 9 weeks of studying and writing term papers.

 

I disagree that parents are the customers, this will lead you to nothing but a disaster. You cannot coach to please parents, parents have to be willing to buy into YOUR system, if not they will need to find a system that appeases them. This will lead to the DARKSIDE of coaching, if you are making concessions for one player/parent then be prepared to be chastised after every game by all of your parents. You cannot put the desires of individuals and parents above the team. Now, if you are coaching a developmental team in a recreational league then this approach may apply, but in the COMPETITIVE arena this is really bad approach. It sounds like you are trying to play with a recreational approach in a highly competitive environment, believe me this will not work, you’ll end up with just a lot of frustration and disappointment in the end. Play where your players can compete and grow.

If it is a players true intention to develop their skills to the highest of their ability and contribute to the team, then coming off the bench is fine because they know and understand the big picture. Skilled and highly competitive players know that they are going to continually develop, play and contribute, they are not worrying about whatever the other factors are you are referring to. They are focused and know they’re advancing in skill level because they are playing and practicing with the best players and coaches every day. It’s when players/parents have their own agenda or focus on the other factors that causes the problems, these types of players/parents cannot be in a true team type environment. These types of players/parents need to be on a team where they can influence the game strategy, the coaches and other parents/players on the team to see things their way. Again, this approach does not work in a COMPETITIVE environment, just ask Kobe Bryant.

It’s not only noble but it’s a very realistic goal for any organization to have the best players on one team, they just need to weed out all of the distractions. There are parents that don’t want to see success because their player cannot be apart of it. People only allow themselves to become pawns because they let themselves be influenced by factors and others that have little or no knowledge of what’s required to compete at higher level competitive sports. They should seek out and listen to those who’s only interest or agenda is developing competitive athletes, not someone with a biased or self-serving interest. When a parent starts out with what’s best for my daughter, show them the door immediately.

 

I don't think the fairfax, fencor or the kenner coaches, players and parents buy into the main goal of winning nationals, a parent told me they focus solely on developing and teaching players the fundamentals, values, dedication and work ethics it takes to compete. Winning is just a result, not their goal.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Spree1024

[elitebball]

Everyone is different and unique, that is why there are sports programs for everyone at every level.  I am specifically talking about AAU Nationals and the level of skill, preparation, dedication and type of athlete it requires to compete at that event.  I doubt if  anyone that is serious about competing at the AAU level is not concerned about winning, Winning is a result the work ethic, effort and sacrifices made to achieve.  You may not win but the progress it takes to win is where the value is.  Winning is like ‘acing’ a final exam after a long 9 weeks of studying and writing term papers. 

 

I disagree that parents are the customers, this will lead you to nothing but a disaster. You cannot coach to please parents, parents have to be willing to buy into YOUR system, if not they will need to find a system that appeases them.  This will lead to the DARKSIDE of coaching, if you are making concessions for one player/parent then be prepared to be chastised after every game by all of your parents.  You cannot put the desires of individuals and parents above the team.  Now, if you are coaching a developmental team  in a recreational league then this approach may apply, but in the COMPETITIVE arena this is really bad approach.  It sounds like you are trying to play with a recreational approach in a highly competitive environment, believe me this will not work, you’ll end up with just a lot of frustration and disappointment in the end.  Play where your players can compete and grow.

If it is a players true intention to develop their skills to the highest of their ability and contribute to the team, then coming off the bench is fine because they know and understand the big picture.  Skilled and highly competitive players know that they are going to continually develop, play and contribute, they are not worrying about whatever the other factors are you are referring to.  They are focused and know they’re advancing in skill level because they are playing and practicing with the best players and coaches every day.  It’s when players/parents have their own agenda or focus on the other factors that causes the problems, these types of players/parents cannot be in a true team type environment.  These types of players/parents need to be on a team where they can influence the game strategy, the coaches and other parents/players on the team to see things their way.  Again, this approach does not work in a COMPETITIVE environment, just ask Kobe Bryant.

It’s not only noble but it’s a very realistic goal for any organization to have the best players on one team, they just need to weed out all of the distractions. There are parents that don’t want to see success because their player cannot be apart of it.  People only allow themselves to become pawns because they let themselves be influenced by factors and others that have little or no knowledge of what’s required to compete at higher level competitive sports.  They should seek out and listen to those who’s only interest or agenda is developing competitive athletes, not someone with a biased or self-serving interest.  When a parent starts out with what’s best for my daughter, show them the door immediately.

 

I don't think the fairfax, fencor or the kenner coaches, players and parents buy into the main goal of winning nationals, a parent told me they focus solely on developing and teaching players the fundamentals, values, dedication and work ethics it takes to compete.  Winning is just a result, not their goal.

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No need to continue this. You and I agree on your main point, which is that Tennessee, cities, or organizations have a better chance of success at nationals if we are able to get the best players on one team. But I think we disagree on why that doesn't happen more often. Don't shoot the messenger, in this case, me because of the realities of the factors girls and parents consider when it comes time to decide whether to play competitive ball and who to play for. I wasn't stating my personal views, but rather offering explainations as to why these teams don't get together more often. I realize you cannot cater what you do to please parents or individual agendas, and I am not condoning that. But if the girls and parents don't buy into your plan or don't feel you are the one they want to lead them, then they will look elsewhere. Your plan won't succeed if you are not able to persuade your customers (players and parents) that it is best for the child and something that they want to do. Many times loyalties develop and girls would rather play with their friends, a certain organization, or a coach they like, rather than the best team. These teams may well be very competitive teams that will contend for state titles and do well at nationals, but might not be as strong as if the best from multiple teams combined. This can no doubt be frustrating when the goal is to compete at the highest level, but the girls or parents are led by other factors. But it is reality, and we are working with girls and parents, thus my comment about them being our customers. As the president of an organization with a variety of different levels of teams, who is privy to many of the soap operas that can go on with these teams, I fully understand the realities of coaches, parents, and girls on a day to day basis. To get the best players together, all parties have to focus on that goal and find ways to work together, without worrying about who gets the glory..... If that happens it would be great, but in the meantime Tennessee seems to do pretty well regardless. How about we end this by agreeing this is a noble and realistic goal and work towards it in any way we can.....

Edited August 6, 2005 by elitebball

[Spree1024]

elitebball,

My comments are not directed towards you specifically, I'm hoping that others in TN can read this msg. board and begin to think about the possibilities that could exist for all ages groups and organizations throughtout the state of TN. Yes, most 9u - 14u do prefer toplay with friends and people they are comfortable with. From dealing with the soap operas of parents, uncles, aunts and a host of their other relatives and friends over the years myself it can be frustrating and challenging to get people to agree on things. But if this didn't exist where would all the fun be .

 

No problem here, just good dialog to keep people interested. thumb

Edited August 7, 2005 by Spree1024

[QuiKTiLDeF]

Seems like another hotmouth teen spouting off again.  I wish sometimes that these boards were for adults who know what they are talking about.  It doesn't matter if the game was close, you guys still forfeited the first game and lost the second game to Fencor. Win is a win and a loss is a loss NO matter the score and a chicken is a chicken and a duck is a duck, till the chicken wants to duck out then he is still just a chicken. Whose to say that if Pride had of played Fencor the first time, maybe it would have been a blowout, maybe not. Never know now, will we. We will see where the recuiters are next year.  Also, you shouldn't know what the recuiters thought or said, can't talk to you just yet.  Better luck next time.

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I'm not trying to start anything, but i just had to clear up a few things.

 

1. I'm not a teen, been in college for a few years buddy.

2. I never said I knew what the recruiters thought or said.

3. I was just supporting my team like everyone else does.

 

I also never felt that them forfeiting the game was a good thing. "If" I had been in control of the situation then yes my team would have played every game and this wouldn't even be the subject of conversation. That's not the case though and we have a Pride bashing at our hands. If you wanna blame anyone then talk about the coaches, but realize that the girls on the team wanted to play and weren't scared to face Fencor, but you can't argue with a coaches strategic decision. I don't care anymore though cause that tournament is done with. See you all next year.

 

Sorry if this post is a week late and all, but i have a job to go to and cars to work on so I stay busy. PAYCE (from the hotmouth teen)

Edited August 7, 2005 by QuiKTiLDeF

[JustDoIT]

A loss is a loss. You can not compare scores. Flight tied for 9th position and advanced to the Sweet 16, something Pride did not. Could be that the difference in score was due to the fewer games that the Pride played. I don't know and don't have a horse in the race, but it beats me how anyone can condone forfeiting a game at any level, muchless in the national tournament. You should have enough faith in your team to NOT RUN from anyone. Regardless of how you look at the scores, Flight is wearing a Sweet 16 T'shirt and Pride is not. A TRUE competetor never runs from another team, nor do they BRAG about any loss. TRUE winners are not happy walking away with a loss, no matter what the score was.

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If you look back you will see that I certainly do not agree with Prides forfeiting of the game for a variety of reasons. However the Pride did not have to have one of their main organization / coaches removed from coaching because he could not coach with class and respect. Thus I think the TNwareagle's Shelbyville / Nike bias maybe showing through in this post.

 

Seems as though both organizations maybe loosing perspective!

Edited August 8, 2005 by JustDoIT

[showtime7]

I have stayed away from this topic and plan on doing so. Yes, one of our coaches stepped down but to let you know our organization is going strong as ever. We are having to turn kids away due to kids and parents wanting to be apart of our organization and not having enough spots is always a great problem to have. I will continue to stay away from this topic cause I know for fact that the director of the pride organization does not want me to start throwing stones.

 

Miss Wareagle keep speaking the truth

Edited August 8, 2005 by showtime7