Kentucky Split Debate heats up

[big red big blue]

Sumner is not rural or urban? What is it rurban or urbal?

 

good question....

[Generally Speaking]

Privates win 3 out of 4. Trinity beat St. X in 4A. LexCath beat Bowling

Green in 3A. Russell beat Owensboro Catholic in 2A. Newport Central

Catholic beat Mayfield in 1A.

[rockmom]

My point on the Catholic schools is just curiosity as to why the Catholic schools are so much more powerful than the other privates even in Kentucky, when in Tennessee they are not. Surely the mission isn't that different?!

 

Apologies for the error on Kentucky's classifications.

 

And I've been stating for quite some time that if you look at what's really happening in Tennessee, even at the large-school level, you find that rural schools are dominated by urban ones in most sports.

 

 

There are many factors, but the single biggest factor, IMO, is that Catholic grade schools have organized sports beginning as early as 1st grade (for some sports). My son began playing football in 3rd grade, in the Louisville Catholic School Athletic Association league. As these kids grow up, they're playing sports from the earliest possible age, in an organized, league setting. 90% of these kids go on to Catholic High Schools, the boys most often to Trinity and St. X. Many of these kids have been playing football together since 3rd grade. As far as football is concerned, this is a huge edge for the Catholic high schools. It hasn't seemed to work in basketball or baseball, but definitely in football. Now, that being said, there IS a numbers advantage, when Trinity & X have 100 dressing. However, besides numbers, it's the level of play these kids are playing at by the time they reach varsity level. Trinity and X are dressing a huge team of players, made up predominantly of kids who've been playing since at LEAST age 10, many since age 8. It's not just the number, it's the skills these kids have. Even their 3rd string has more experience than some schools' 1st string.

 

The public school system has no formal grade school/middle school programs for most sports, most interestingly, football. How can one deny the advantage of having kids arriving into a high school program with the knowledge, skills and discipline already in place, to kids arriving in their freshman year and BEGINNING to learn football? It's not a sport you can watch and then assume you can translate the skill on the field. No one wants to look at that aspect. Everyone wants to focus on the fact that we have huge numbers. We acknowledge that, but assert that it's the skill level of those kids that makes the difference.

[Antwan]

There are many factors, but the single biggest factor, IMO, is that Catholic grade schools have organized sports beginning as early as 1st grade (for some sports). My son began playing football in 3rd grade, in the Louisville Catholic School Athletic Association league. As these kids grow up, they're playing sports from the earliest possible age, in an organized, league setting. 90% of these kids go on to Catholic High Schools, the boys most often to Trinity and St. X. Many of these kids have been playing football together since 3rd grade. As far as football is concerned, this is a huge edge for the Catholic high schools. It hasn't seemed to work in basketball or baseball, but definitely in football. Now, that being said, there IS a numbers advantage, when Trinity & X have 100 dressing. However, besides numbers, it's the level of play these kids are playing at by the time they reach varsity level. Trinity and X are dressing a huge team of players, made up predominantly of kids who've been playing since at LEAST age 10, many since age 8. It's not just the number, it's the skills these kids have. Even their 3rd string has more experience than some schools' 1st string.

 

The public school system has no formal grade school/middle school programs for most sports, most interestingly, football. How can one deny the advantage of having kids arriving into a high school program with the knowledge, skills and discipline already in place, to kids arriving in their freshman year and BEGINNING to learn football? It's not a sport you can watch and then assume you can translate the skill on the field. No one wants to look at that aspect. Everyone wants to focus on the fact that we have huge numbers. We acknowledge that, but assert that it's the skill level of those kids that makes the difference.

 

Numbers help...but they are not the deciding factor. Trousdale County won our 1a championship with 27 players dressed. Many teams they played...this year...had 70 or more. If...out of that 100...you have the best athletes...it is more of an advantage. Obviously...Trinity does.

 

Also...just because kids play from the 3rd grade on...is not a big deal either. Sometimes...more times than not...kids burn out when they play that long.

A lot of coaches here...don't want kids playing football until they reach junior high age. If they have a good feeder program...and the coach has access to them at that age...that's plenty early enough. One advantage is that the coaches identify the best athletes earlier. I can't imagine a Catholic kid in Louisville not wanting to attend T or X.

 

Nah...Trinity and St. X are very good schools with very good athletes attending.

They get the pick of the Louisville area in athletes and coaches. That's why you win.

 

I have not heard much proposed about splitting the financial aid schools from the others. Are all private schools in KY aid schools? I know most are Catholic. What about the ones that are not Catholic?

Edited December 5, 2005 by Antwan

[rockmom]

Numbers help...but they are not the deciding factor. Trousdale County won our 1a championship with 27 players dressed. Many teams they played...this year...had 70 or more. If...out of that 100...you have the best athletes...it is more of an advantage. Obviously...Trinity does.

 

Also...just because kids play from the 3rd grade on...is not a big deal either. Sometimes...more times than not...kids burn out when they play that long.

A lot of coaches here...don't want kids playing football until they reach junior high age. If they have a good feeder program...and the coach has access to them at that age...that's plenty early enough. One advantage is that the coaches identify the best athletes earlier. I can't imagine a Catholic kid in Louisville not wanting to attend T or X.

 

Nah...Trinity and St. X are very good schools with very good athletes attending.

They get the pick of the Louisville area in athletes and coaches. That's why you win.

 

I have not heard much proposed about splitting the financial aid schools from the others. Are all private schools in KY aid schools? I know most are Catholic. What about the ones that are not Catholic?

 

Since Louisville has almost a million residents, and there are slightly less than 3000 students at each Trinity and St. X, and slightly less than 300 playing football between both schools and including their freshmen teams, which do not dress for varisity, I'd have to say you are incorrect about us getting the best athletes. In addition, with open enrollment in Louisville, every student has the ability to apply for admission to any public school. The players the AP pick for their first team district teams are overwhelmingly from public schools, and very rarely does a private school player wind up higher than 2nd team All-State. Very, VERY few go on to play DI ball, and even fewer earn scholarships to play DI ball.

 

Coach Glaser has been at St. X for 28 years, and he is one of the best. But, 28 years ago, I don't think you'd have classified him as such. Coach Beatty took over the Trinity program 6 years ago, after 3 years as head coach at a private high school in Missouri. The assistant coaches, interestingly, are former players, and there are Trinity graduates on X's staff, and former X coaches on Trinity's staff...and our DC is actually X's former DC. We aren't exactly wooing great coaches from public schools here.

 

I can't speak for any schools other than Catholic private schools. Yes, we offer financial aid, administered by a 3rd party, out-of-state agency. The application contains nothing but one's financial information, income, assets, liabilities, etc. The student's name is not even on the actual application, simply a number. No family is awarded any more than 50% aid. The tuition at Trinity is $7,800/year...meaning a family, at the minimum, pays $3,900/year, plus books, etc.

 

40% of students at Trinity receive financial aid of some sort. Most awards are $1,000 or less.

 

I find it interesting that you can offer such a definitive statement into the reason for Trinity and St. X's success, given you admit you know nothing about their schools. Do you have knowledge of Jefferson County Public Schools open enrollment policy, vs. the larger portion of the state's closed district policies? And, you really think that coaches prefer kids with no experience at all? Why then, are so many great athetes coming out of some areas' youth leagues and into the public school programs? You don't think that learning the fundamentals of football at an early age would allow them to be ready for higher level of play in high school?

[PrepFanatic]

 

 

Also...just because kids play from the 3rd grade on...is not a big deal either. Sometimes...more times than not...kids burn out when they play that long.

 

Starting that early is a big deal. The more kids learn at that age is a big plus when they move to the junior high level and so on.I coach kids that age and I've seen the programs around here move up a level. Sure some kids burn out, but what I've seen is that the special kids ( the ones with outstanding talent) move on to be great ball players.The senior class football players at Lexington were the first players to play in our pee wee football program. They went 12-0 before falling to DL, now that wont happen every year but its a statement to getting the kids started early. When this group got to middle schol they did everything right, they blocked well, they ran the ball well, they tackled well, it does make a difference. We have 5 or 6 that will play at the next level, 3 going to D-I.

[big red big blue]

Since Louisville has almost a million residents, and there are slightly less than 3000 students at each Trinity and St. X, and slightly less than 300 playing football between both schools and including their freshmen teams, which do not dress for varisity, I'd have to say you are incorrect about us getting the best athletes. In addition, with open enrollment in Louisville, every student has the ability to apply for admission to any public school. The players the AP pick for their first team district teams are overwhelmingly from public schools, and very rarely does a private school player wind up higher than 2nd team All-State. Very, VERY few go on to play DI ball, and even fewer earn scholarships to play DI ball.

 

Coach Glaser has been at St. X for 28 years, and he is one of the best. But, 28 years ago, I don't think you'd have classified him as such. Coach Beatty took over the Trinity program 6 years ago, after 3 years as head coach at a private high school in Missouri. The assistant coaches, interestingly, are former players, and there are Trinity graduates on X's staff, and former X coaches on Trinity's staff...and our DC is actually X's former DC. We aren't exactly wooing great coaches from public schools here.

 

I can't speak for any schools other than Catholic private schools. Yes, we offer financial aid, administered by a 3rd party, out-of-state agency. The application contains nothing but one's financial information, income, assets, liabilities, etc. The student's name is not even on the actual application, simply a number. No family is awarded any more than 50% aid. The tuition at Trinity is $7,800/year...meaning a family, at the minimum, pays $3,900/year, plus books, etc.

 

40% of students at Trinity receive financial aid of some sort. Most awards are $1,000 or less.

 

I find it interesting that you can offer such a definitive statement into the reason for Trinity and St. X's success, given you admit you know nothing about their schools. Do you have knowledge of Jefferson County Public Schools open enrollment policy, vs. the larger portion of the state's closed district policies? And, you really think that coaches prefer kids with no experience at all? Why then, are so many great athetes coming out of some areas' youth leagues and into the public school programs? You don't think that learning the fundamentals of football at an early age would allow them to be ready for higher level of play in high school?

 

thanks for visiting Rockmom. This is some interesting info. What % of the kids at Trinity and X are Catholic? Is there a large Catholic population in Louisville? And are there restrictions, as there were in TN before our split, on the number of financial aid athletes that can play on a varsity team?

 

Been a great series between MBA and Trinity and I hope we can keep it up in the future...

[rockmom]

thanks for visiting Rockmom. This is some interesting info. What % of the kids at Trinity and X are Catholic? Is there a large Catholic population in Louisville? And are there restrictions, as there were in TN before our split, on the number of financial aid athletes that can play on a varsity team?

 

Been a great series between MBA and Trinity and I hope we can keep it up in the future...

 

 

Slightly more than 95% of the students at Trinity & X are Catholic. I guess you could say that Louisville has a large Catholic population. There ae a LOT of Catholic churches and parish grade schools in Louisville. But fewer High Schools, mainly due to population shifts toward the east. There are currently no restrictions on the number of financial aid athletes. The delegates in Kentucky have decided that the best proposal is to split the championships into Public/Private. They've essentially skipped over any proposals addressing the individual issues at hand (financial aid, district boundaries, out of state students, etc). Interestingly, Public school supporters had decided that they'd "allow" the Catholic/Private schools to play the Public schools during the regular season, but when playoffs began, it would be Public/Public and Private/Private.

 

I hope we can keep the MBA/Trinity series as well. I believe it is one of the reasons we've become better and better each year. The atmosphere is great, the pride in each program is similar, and I know it's one of our players most anticipated matchups each year as well.

[Antwan]

Since Louisville has almost a million residents, and there are slightly less than 3000 students at each Trinity and St. X, and slightly less than 300 playing football between both schools and including their freshmen teams, which do not dress for varisity, I'd have to say you are incorrect about us getting the best athletes. In addition, with open enrollment in Louisville, every student has the ability to apply for admission to any public school. The players the AP pick for their first team district teams are overwhelmingly from public schools, and very rarely does a private school player wind up higher than 2nd team All-State. Very, VERY few go on to play DI ball, and even fewer earn scholarships to play DI ball.

 

Coach Glaser has been at St. X for 28 years, and he is one of the best. But, 28 years ago, I don't think you'd have classified him as such. Coach Beatty took over the Trinity program 6 years ago, after 3 years as head coach at a private high school in Missouri. The assistant coaches, interestingly, are former players, and there are Trinity graduates on X's staff, and former X coaches on Trinity's staff...and our DC is actually X's former DC. We aren't exactly wooing great coaches from public schools here.

 

I can't speak for any schools other than Catholic private schools. Yes, we offer financial aid, administered by a 3rd party, out-of-state agency. The application contains nothing but one's financial information, income, assets, liabilities, etc. The student's name is not even on the actual application, simply a number. No family is awarded any more than 50% aid. The tuition at Trinity is $7,800/year...meaning a family, at the minimum, pays $3,900/year, plus books, etc.

 

40% of students at Trinity receive financial aid of some sort. Most awards are $1,000 or less.

 

I find it interesting that you can offer such a definitive statement into the reason for Trinity and St. X's success, given you admit you know nothing about their schools. Do you have knowledge of Jefferson County Public Schools open enrollment policy, vs. the larger portion of the state's closed district policies? And, you really think that coaches prefer kids with no experience at all? Why then, are so many great athetes coming out of some areas' youth leagues and into the public school programs? You don't think that learning the fundamentals of football at an early age would allow them to be ready for higher level of play in high school?

 

Actually...I am very familiar with Louisville and KY in general. I used to live there.

I did not say I didn't know about your schools. I do know quite a bit more than most Tennesseans. I still have friends in Louisville.

 

I did know there is a huge Catholic population in Louisville. I do know you do have some very good athletes. I've seen Trinity and St. X play. Both usually have DI athletes...just as many as most other schools.

 

I did not say coaches prefer kids with no experience. I did say that if a coach gets a kid by junior high...it is early enough. Some...not all...don't want their kids playing too early.

 

 

 

 

Slightly more than 95% of the students at Trinity & X are Catholic. I guess you could say that Louisville has a large Catholic population. There ae a LOT of Catholic churches and parish grade schools in Louisville. But fewer High Schools, mainly due to population shifts toward the east. There are currently no restrictions on the number of financial aid athletes. The delegates in Kentucky have decided that the best proposal is to split the championships into Public/Private. They've essentially skipped over any proposals addressing the individual issues at hand (financial aid, district boundaries, out of state students, etc). Interestingly, Public school supporters had decided that they'd "allow" the Catholic/Private schools to play the Public schools during the regular season, but when playoffs began, it would be Public/Public and Private/Private.

 

I hope we can keep the MBA/Trinity series as well. I believe it is one of the reasons we've become better and better each year. The atmosphere is great, the pride in each program is similar, and I know it's one of our players most anticipated matchups each year as well.

 

I don't know why anyone would be against playing each other in the regular season.

We do.

[rockmom]

Actually...I am very familiar with Louisville and KY in general. I used to live there.

I did not say I didn't know about your schools. I do know quite a bit more than most Tennesseans. I still have friends in Louisville.

 

I did know there is a huge Catholic population in Louisville. I do know you do have some very good athletes. I've seen Trinity and St. X play. Both usually have DI athletes...just as many as most other schools.

 

I did not say coaches prefer kids with no experience. I did say that if a coach gets a kid by junior high...it is early enough. Some...not all...don't want their kids playing too early.

I don't know why anyone would be against playing each other in the regular season.

We do.

 

 

We do not get the pick of athletes in Louisville, or we'd have Douglas Beaumont, KJ Black, Tim Horton and a few others at either St. X or Trinity. We'd have had Earl Heyman (now @ the University of Louisville), Keenan Burton (Now at University of Kentucky) or Michael Bush (University of Louisville)....The last DI player was Brian Brohm....I'm hard pressed to remember any others, except DeQuese May who's at Villanova now.

 

Exactly what is the point of the Publics "allowing" the play in the regular season and not in the post-season? Is it to capitalize on the gate receipts? If the "playing field" is not level with us in the post-season, how is it any more even during the regular season?

[big red big blue]

Slightly more than 95% of the students at Trinity & X are Catholic. I guess you could say that Louisville has a large Catholic population. There ae a LOT of Catholic churches and parish grade schools in Louisville. But fewer High Schools, mainly due to population shifts toward the east. There are currently no restrictions on the number of financial aid athletes. The delegates in Kentucky have decided that the best proposal is to split the championships into Public/Private. They've essentially skipped over any proposals addressing the individual issues at hand (financial aid, district boundaries, out of state students, etc). Interestingly, Public school supporters had decided that they'd "allow" the Catholic/Private schools to play the Public schools during the regular season, but when playoffs began, it would be Public/Public and Private/Private.

 

I hope we can keep the MBA/Trinity series as well. I believe it is one of the reasons we've become better and better each year. The atmosphere is great, the pride in each program is similar, and I know it's one of our players most anticipated matchups each year as well.

 

that definitely answers a lot of my questions. I would infer Nashville is a much different place in terms of demogrpahics by faith. In a similar sized city, there are (someone correct me if I'm wrong) three private Catholic schools in the greater Nashville area: Father Ryan HS (co-ed, close to 100 years old, with about 1000 students) St. Cecilia (all girls) and John Paul II (only about 5 years old, co-ed--630 students and in Hendersonville). Not sure about JPII, but I'd guess FRHS and St. C are both around 95% Catholic also.

 

What is the rest of the private school landscape like in Louisville? Are there other, similarly-sized non-Catholic schools?

[Antwan]

We do not get the pick of athletes in Louisville, or we'd have Douglas Beaumont, KJ Black, Tim Horton and a few others at either St. X or Trinity. We'd have had Earl Heyman (now @ the University of Louisville), Keenan Burton (Now at University of Kentucky) or Michael Bush (University of Louisville)....The last DI player was Brian Brohm....I'm hard pressed to remember any others, except DeQuese May who's at Villanova now.

 

Exactly what is the point of the Publics "allowing" the play in the regular season and not in the post-season? Is it to capitalize on the gate receipts? If the "playing field" is not level with us in the post-season, how is it any more even during the regular season?

 

I must make the distinction between aid and non-aid schools. I am sure you are aware of our DI and DII privates. DII privates are financial aid. DI privates are not.

DII privates (MBA...BA etc.) are in their own division. I am sure you know that.

DI privates are multiplied by 1.8. They are non-aid. Knoxville Catholic and Chattanooga Notre Dame (obviously Catholic) are in that category. I was told by Knox Catholic fans...that their Catholic student population is less than 25 %.

 

Most privates do not travel well. It is not for the gate receipts. I would think it is more for competition and...most of the time...close proximity. The only drawback is that the 1st tie-breaker is over all record. Some DI teams will play them. Some will not. Otherwise...it has no bearing on the playoffs.

 

It is not that publics "allow" the interplay. Privates have to schedule the games too. Most larger publics will not play the DII teams. A lot of smaller publics will play DI privates. At least ...it happens more often.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Antwan