TNT's "Robo-ref"

[Lovethisgame]

well game, there is no way we are going to change your mind about the refereeing. however, what you see in the stands is totally different than what the referee sees. i'm not saying it shouldn't have been called. but be in the referees shoes. i love watching basketball but i am not going to get online after watching a middle school game and complain about officiating, thats nonsense because a lot of those guys are trying to get better and become varsity officials. just enjoy watching your kids play and quit harping on the negative aspects of the games.

 

But you will get online and voice your opinion. What's the difference?

[atdenton]

yes, you are right about the opinion, every person is entitled to theirs. however, do you think that it will solve the problems that you have if you just harp online. what good does that do for the basketball community? how does it strengthen or help the kids? these kids get on here and read this stuff and they think that it's ok to yell or put blame on a referee because it's the norm. Again why does middle school basketball have to be negative now adays? this isn't the NBA and these kids need to learn discipline from the athletic programs and learn to become a better people. if not then why watch, play, coach, or officiate. instead of the saying "don't hate the player, hate the game" or however, that goes. thats stupid because it will only get you into trouble. because if we don't have the game then what do we have?

[Mustang Fever]

yes, you are right about the opinion, every person is entitled to theirs. however, do you think that it will solve the problems that you have if you just harp online. what good does that do for the basketball community? how does it strengthen or help the kids? these kids get on here and read this stuff and they think that it's ok to yell or put blame on a referee because it's the norm. Again why does middle school basketball have to be negative now adays? this isn't the NBA and these kids need to learn discipline from the athletic programs and learn to become a better people. if not then why watch, play, coach, or officiate. instead of the saying "don't hate the player, hate the game" or however, that goes. thats stupid because it will only get you into trouble. because if we don't have the game then what do we have?

 

gosh....you're stretching a little bit there aren't ya ?

[Turnadouble]

yes, you are right about the opinion, every person is entitled to theirs. however, do you think that it will solve the problems that you have if you just harp online. what good does that do for the basketball community? how does it strengthen or help the kids? these kids get on here and read this stuff and they think that it's ok to yell or put blame on a referee because it's the norm. Again why does middle school basketball have to be negative now adays? this isn't the NBA and these kids need to learn discipline from the athletic programs and learn to become a better people. if not then why watch, play, coach, or officiate. instead of the saying "don't hate the player, hate the game" or however, that goes. thats stupid because it will only get you into trouble. because if we don't have the game then what do we have?

First, let me say, our team never complained about a ref costing us a game or placing blame with the refs. Your right you can't blame a ref for losing a game. But on the other hand whom do you blame when a kid gets hurt because the refs let the game get to rough?? These were absolutely the roughest games I have ever seen. It wasn’t just our team’s games either…every game I watched was like that. The refs set the tone of the game by allowing it to become a football game. Let me just set the record straight…we placed 1st & 2nd in our bracket, so I’m not a sore loser.

You said “these kids get on here and read this stuff and they think that it's ok to yell or put blame on a referee because it's the norm.” They don’t have to get on her & read it …they played it!!! As a result of this tournament we had a girl with 7 stitches over her eye & a 5 to 6 inch bruise on her side (where she was held on to ALL night…oh now foul was called) & one of our boys set out half the game because he was knocked to the floor so hard (bruised hip) & he was our all state player. That is just 2 teams so I can imagine what other injuries kids had!!!! So don’t set there & say, “this isn't the NBA and these kids need to learn discipline from the athletic programs and learn to become a better people. if not then why watch, play, coach, or officiate.” Your right this isn’t the NBA… so I don’t expect our kids to get beat up like it is!!

Let me ask you, is this the kind of discipline that needs to be taught…. kids being taken off the courts hurt& bleeding??? I am an official & I know first hand you catch a lot of slack regardless what sport you are call. I will agree that kids this day & age kids don’t have the respect like my generation did & I blame a lot of parents for that. But this wasn’t the case in the games I watched!!!! The refs deserve every bit of the heat they are getting. This was like paying to watching back yard ball!!

[bballmom10]

First, let me say, our team never complained about a ref costing us a game or placing blame with the refs. Your right you can't blame a ref for losing a game. But on the other hand whom do you blame when a kid gets hurt because the refs let the game get to rough?? These were absolutely the roughest games I have ever seen. It wasn’t just our team’s games either…every game I watched was like that. The refs set the tone of the game by allowing it to become a football game. Let me just set the record straight…we placed 1st & 2nd in our bracket, so I’m not a sore loser.

You said “these kids get on here and read this stuff and they think that it's ok to yell or put blame on a referee because it's the norm.” They don’t have to get on her & read it …they played it!!! As a result of this tournament we had a girl with 7 stitches over her eye & a 5 to 6 inch bruise on her side (where she was held on to ALL night…oh now foul was called) & one of our boys set out half the game because he was knocked to the floor so hard (bruised hip) & he was our all state player. That is just 2 teams so I can imagine what other injuries kids had!!!!.........

 

I agree with you totally! This is our 3rd year with a child playing in the TNT and every year it has gotten worse. While a game rarely comes down to 1 call or even one play, one horrendous call can change the tone of the rest of the game. When the team that is ahead has the ball and is in the bonus and the clock is ticking, the other coach starts yelling to foul. The girl with the ball is assaulted from behind then wrapped up by the other player. Robo ref blows his whistle and calls a travel. That is a game changing call! But aside from that, we have seen girls with scratches that are bleeding, black eyes and bloody noses. We were at a game when the ref finally blew the whistle, one mom yells out "that's not a foul, that's just basketball". my response was "no ma'am, that is not basketball it's football and we didn't wear our pad." i'm all for letting them play, but safety has to be the number one concern and it is obviously not. we watched at least 10 TNT games this year and the theme was the same, it was all very rough and the officiating was at very best inconsistent. or as one of the players said, "oh it was consistent. consistently the worst of offficiating ever". let me just leave with this. these kids, every one of them, have worked harder than most of us adults can fathom. they put so much into their efforts and all they ask if that the refs do their job. they don't try to keep a mental tab of bad call make-ups. they don't feel sorry for a team and help them by calling touch fouls. they do their best. they will make mistakes, but they won't spend the rest of the game trying to make up for it with bad call after bad call.

[atdenton]

great job on your finish of the tourney and well i'm sorry for your kids getting hurt. but in essense it will come with the game, not saying it couldn't have been cleaned up from the officiating. but playing all the way up through college, these kids are going to get hurt at some point, realistically. you say your an official but you know good and well that if you were a true official you wouldn't blame them or say anything about them, because yall are all in it together, to get better at officiating and become closer as a core.

and personally i think they must adjust and overcome situations. not be stupid and have a dumb foul but get strong and more determined to score points or more motivation to win. i just think as parents people are more inclined to think it's rougher than it actually is. not to say that it wasn't rough. but all the games that i watched never seemed to get to that point of a football game but i didn't watch all of them. also, what people may think is a foul may be clumsiness on the kids part so it would be incidental contact. don't get me wrong there probably was hard fouls and brusies and swollen somthings but i think some of the parents think everytime Johny get touched it's a foul.

youre right about the NBA but i was meaning playing style and attitudes of the NBA players. sorry about the confusion. and i'm not calling anyone a sore loser, i just think instead of saying this stuff on here, what would be some POSITIVE ways that could help the referees?

[Turnadouble]

great job on your finish of the tourney and well i'm sorry for your kids getting hurt. but in essense it will come with the game, not saying it couldn't have been cleaned up from the officiating. but playing all the way up through college, these kids are going to get hurt at some point, realistically. you say your an official but you know good and well that if you were a true official you wouldn't blame them or say anything about them, because yall are all in it together, to get better at officiating and become closer as a core.

and personally i think they must adjust and overcome situations. not be stupid and have a dumb foul but get strong and more determined to score points or more motivation to win. i just think as parents people are more inclined to think it's rougher than it actually is. not to say that it wasn't rough. but all the games that i watched never seemed to get to that point of a football game but i didn't watch all of them. also, what people may think is a foul may be clumsiness on the kids part so it would be incidental contact. don't get me wrong there probably was hard fouls and brusies and swollen somthings but i think some of the parents think everytime Johny get touched it's a foul.

youre right about the NBA but i was meaning playing style and attitudes of the NBA players. sorry about the confusion. and i'm not calling anyone a sore loser, i just think instead of saying this stuff on here, what would be some POSITIVE ways that could help the referees?

As for your comment “you say your an official but you know good and well that if you were a true official you wouldn't blame them or say anything about them, because yall are all in it together, to get better at officiating and become closer as a core.” Well if you would have read my post you would have seen that I never blamed the refs …I did have my options about the game, as did everyone else.

Just to clarify…I am an official …your right we are all in it together & I have always had my partners back….I don’t over ride his calls…if he asks me to make the call because he couldn’t see I will but do you really think because I am a official that I should make comments about games???? You are right officials are suppose to stick together but I would not want to be associated with this kind of officiating. I have missed calls before but that was the worst basketball officiating I have ever seen!!! Just because I am an official I’m not going to set here & blow smoke up other peoples #### like you…. trying to convince them what they saw was ok.

I am not a parent of a player…I am just a fan …. & no I don’t think every time a kid is touched it is a foul. The girl & boy I was talking about are far from clumsy….the foul was real! I have watched HS ball & it is rough but the refs call it & try to keep it under control. This is middle school… so, realistically shouldn’t we set the standard up for refs at the Middle school level…since we are getting them ready for HS&College??

Regardless what you say, refs #1 job is to look out for the players…fouls are going to happen & refs are going to miss some…that is ball!!! What we saw @ the TNT was backyard ball!! Come on you have to call a Spade a Spade…it was bad officiating.

Let me guess...you called some of these games???

Edited March 2, 2006 by Turnadouble

[atdenton]

well as a matter of fact i did call a few of them. and having the chance to talk to some coaches and get imput from them, then didn't seem upset but again why would they tell us that it's to rough. i mean if i'm the only referee that sees this post what good does it for the referees that doesn't see it. normally we would think that nothing is wrong and the injuries are a part of the game. however, i care about what goes on in basketball and thats why i have said or asked the things i have asked. looking on the games i refereed it never seemed to be out of hand or a "football" style game. but i had a different viewpoint. i don't know what you meant by blow smoke up people but i honestly just want to understand what we could do as crews to get better and for your sake not let it become a football match. second of all we are hurting on the number of referees in the middle tn area, however, after each game the coach rates the referees to referee in the future. but remember middle school you are mainly going to get new referees, so it's going to be different than varsity referees. and if you read my post i said that maybe it should have been called or maybe not. all i can say is that we call what we see and we do the best that we can.

 

What do you think we should to help the officials? i'm always up for suggestions because i love the game. it's easy to voice opinions but where are the solutions?

[Turnadouble]

well as a matter of fact i did call a few of them. and having the chance to talk to some coaches and get imput from them, then didn't seem upset but again why would they tell us that it's to rough. i mean if i'm the only referee that sees this post what good does it for the referees that doesn't see it. normally we would think that nothing is wrong and the injuries are a part of the game. however, i care about what goes on in basketball and thats why i have said or asked the things i have asked. looking on the games i refereed it never seemed to be out of hand or a "football" style game. but i had a different viewpoint. i don't know what you meant by blow smoke up people but i honestly just want to understand what we could do as crews to get better and for your sake not let it become a football match. second of all we are hurting on the number of referees in the middle tn area, however, after each game the coach rates the referees to referee in the future. but remember middle school you are mainly going to get new referees, so it's going to be different than varsity referees. and if you read my post i said that maybe it should have been called or maybe not. all i can say is that we call what we see and we do the best that we can.

 

What do you think we should to help the officials? i'm always up for suggestions because i love the game. it's easy to voice opinions but where are the solutions?

If you didn’t think the games were rough...you must have been @ a different location. I have a feeling that you are not the guy we are talking about....I don't think he would have ever asked anyone for their options/suggestions. This isn't just a bash against refs...this is about the refs that let the game get bad (robo-ref). He was laughing the whole time...he was just out there to be seen. What was worse...this was the championship game!! In my opinion (you know everyone has one) as far as the fouling getting out of control.....watch the kids hanging on to the other players. I'm not talking touch, I’m talking hanging on to them! What I seen that really bothered me was kids getting beat-up under the goal & no fouls. There is a fine line...you can't call every touch but come on you know what I'm talking about. Then they would call STUPID reaching in fouls that were not that bad as the goal fouls. It is a double edge sword… what is bad & what is just playing ball??? It is all the refs judgment…that is the bottom line. I think once you call fouls under the goal...you have set the tone...coaches will tell players “watch your fouls under the goal...he's calling them" but if you let the players set the tone.... they know they can get away with it. You can't blame the kids for trying… that's why he has 5 fouls. I know players test the refs limits...sometimes you get caught...sometimes you don't. I heard A LOT of trash talk on the floor…. if I could hear it I know the Ref heard it.

Once again, if you are asking for suggestions ….you are probably not the ref we seen. I’m not saying all refs are bad but the ones we seen…were as bad as it gets!

[atdenton]

well i undestand what you are saying about touch and hard fouls. and i have played and i just call the game how i would want it called when i play. i can't speak for other officials and how they act or their methods of officiating but if one guy looks bad we all look bad. i think i seem to think i do an ok job at it but here's another thing to think about?

 

this year i was refereeing a game and the final score was 78-9. and everytime the one team went up down low she would get fouled but still make the basket. we called the first few but then realized it didn't effect her shot and she didn't seem to complain. do you think we should have called every foul on the opponents even though they only had two points at half and were just doing their best? i believe common sense has to come into play.

again i'm not saying that it shouldn't have been called or should called; but from playing i know what an intentional foul from a hard foul is. there is a big difference. but i do know that MTBOA is doing there best to help trian the referees better and more knowledgable about the game. but you do know you can't teach and old dog new tricks.

[Turnadouble]

well i undestand what you are saying about touch and hard fouls. and i have played and i just call the game how i would want it called when i play. i can't speak for other officials and how they act or their methods of officiating but if one guy looks bad we all look bad. i think i seem to think i do an ok job at it but here's another thing to think about?

 

this year i was refereeing a game and the final score was 78-9. and everytime the one team went up down low she would get fouled but still make the basket. we called the first few but then realized it didn't effect her shot and she didn't seem to complain. do you think we should have called every foul on the opponents even though they only had two points at half and were just doing their best? i believe common sense has to come into play.

again i'm not saying that it shouldn't have been called or should called; but from playing i know what an intentional foul from a hard foul is. there is a big difference. but i do know that MTBOA is doing there best to help trian the referees better and more knowledgable about the game. but you do know you can't teach and old dog new tricks.

All games are different...I see your dilemma. As an official you have to be consistent. I can't image fans gripping about fouls in a run away game unless they were hard fouls? In my opinion...you have to call fouls as you see them. If you thought it wasn't affecting her shot...why call it...but on the other hand how hard was the foul??? I can't imagine a coach leaving his varsity in to play if it was a run away.... it sounds like you were in a no win situation. In our game...it was championship & a 3 point game.... calls like that can make/break a game(don't get me wrong...refs don't lose the game). Our girls’ game we had a 20-point lead...we weren't so much worried about the points as girls getting hurt & being fair both ways. Officials can be put in hard situations ...I know that...all we ask for is consistency & try to look out for the kids.

[atdenton]

thanks for understanding, i just think,not you, but some people just think referees our out to get other teams or not care to be there, but if we didn't care to be there we wouldn't. but another thing to is that some of the referees have refereed a long time and they were use to refereeing in college or high school so maybe they didn't think that the fouls in the middle school "TNT" games were fouls that they would normally call. it's a tough job, atleast coaches get to be on one side but it's hard to referee games with fans coaches and players all on your back the whole time. i know people say to just block out the fans but it's pretty tough when you get some that just keep riding and riding but never cross the line to get thrown out. no win situation there. a lot of times i just have to smile to keep myself from going up there and saying things i shouldn't. lol. but i think most fouls officials call are ones that they see and they do the best that they can. i can't speak for all of them but so much goes on in a game especially down low that you can't catch everything, i'm not trying to excuse anything. but i appriciate you understanding of our jobs and i like imput it helps me grow as an official. i mean i got told i did a great job in the tourney but i also had a parent come across the floor and tell me i was the worse he's ever seen. you get ups and downs with the job. you just have to learn from mistakes and get better.