Lewis Co. vs. Goodpasture - Excellence and success attracts

[926]

Should we have a seperate division for every school that percieves a difference from other schools then? For instance, should there be a magnet/open zoned public division? Or an inner city division? Or a suburban/metro division? How about racial divisions in the sports that seem to fall along racial lines. Or a non-English-as-primary-language division for schools with a large percentage of Hispanic kids.

 

I warned everyone 3 or 4 years ago that the Division II split and the multiplier would condition people to think that unless schools were identical then they should be seperated because someone would have a percieved "advantage" over someone else. No schools are identical...not even small rural publics. And not every school should win a State Championship...that title should be special, not the result of subdividing until there are 42 divisions so that schools that really aren't very good can win.

 

THe idea of a "Small Rural non-English-as-a-Primary-Language non-openzoned" State Champion (D-XII) may seem silly now, but 4 years ago people laughed at me when I said the witch hunt would move to magnets and open zoned schools next...they aren't laughing now.

 

 

You asked...I responded. I remember you from the old discussions. For you the matter was an obsession (may still be), but for me it was just an active interest. If it were up to me, all of the privates would be in their own division...or at least be moved up to 4A and 5A, which is where they belong if they remain in D1 But that won't happen anytime soon because, ironically, the current D1 privates know it will be the end of State Championships as they know them for several years...until they buckle and start openly recruiting (which they would). They want to remain exactly where they are under the guise that they have limited budgets and can't afford the travel. Please! They want to stay where they are because they know they have a distinct advantage over their public school competition of similar enrollment. You know I'm right. I could live with the small rural publics competing with the small metro publics if all the privates were in their own division. I would even be for reducing the D1 classes from 5 to 4. Not quite 42, now is it?

[tnsddeveloper]

You asked...I responded. I remember you from the old discussions. For you the matter was an obsession (may still be), but for me it was just an active interest. If it were up to me, all of the privates would be in their own division...or at least be moved up to 4A and 5A, which is where they belong if they remain in D1 But that won't happen anytime soon because, ironically, the current D1 privates know it will be the end of State Championships as they know them for several years...until they buckle and start openly recruiting (which they would). They want to remain exactly where they are under the guise that they have limited budgets and can't afford the travel. Please! They want to stay where they are because they know they have a distinct advantage over their public school competition of similar enrollment. You know I'm right. I could live with the small rural publics competing with the small metro publics if all the privates were in their own division. I would even be for reducing the D1 classes from 5 to 4. Not quite 42, now is it?

Is there a coherent thought here?

[926]

Is there a coherent thought here?

 

First...I was responding to Baldcoach. He knows what I'm talking about.

 

Second...You might want to read slower. Pay attention to the commas and look up the words you don't know.

[tnsddeveloper]

First...I was responding to Baldcoach. He knows what I'm talking about.

 

Second...You might want to read slower. Pay attention to the commas and look up the words you don't know.

OK ... I'll respond to your incoherent post!

 

You asked...I responded. I remember you from the old discussions. For you the matter was an obsession (may still be), but for me it was just an active interest.

So yours is just an "active interest" but everyone else (or maybe just Baldcoach) is obsessed? Seems a little self serving.

 

If it were up to me, all of the privates would be in their own division...or at least be moved up to 4A and 5A, which is where they belong if they remain in D1

Why is that where they belong? Are they walking around with mice in their pockets? Are the magic mice that double the already almost double multiplier. I will be proud to tell my kid that unperforming public school people think he is twice the man that their kids are.

 

But that won't happen anytime soon because, ironically, the current D1 privates know it will be the end of State Championships as they know them for several years...until they buckle and start openly recruiting (which they would).

Huh? Openly recruit ... uh, not if it is against the rules.

 

They want to remain exactly where they are under the guise that they have limited budgets and can't afford the travel. Please!

You really, really have no idea what you are talking about. Let's talk about budgets. From a recent Daily News Journal story ... it costs $9000/student a year for public schools to educate and offer services (extracurriculars) to students. That doesn't include the cost of facilities like the school building itself and athletic facilities. Most of the ABC privates hover in the $6K - $8K. That pays for everything. The teachers are WAY underpaid compared to public school counterparts (WAY!). Budget is the THE issue at every private school.

 

They want to stay where they are because they know they have a distinct advantage over their public school competition of similar enrollment. You know I'm right. I could live with the small rural publics competing with the small metro publics if all the privates were in their own division. I would even be for reducing the D1 classes from 5 to 4. Not quite 42, now is it?

Really ... I guess someone forgot to tell Trousdale, South Pitt, Gordonsville, Alcoa, Huntingdon, Milan, etc.

Edited November 16, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[Baldcoach]

You asked...I responded. I remember you from the old discussions. For you the matter was an obsession (may still be), but for me it was just an active interest. If it were up to me, all of the privates would be in their own division...or at least be moved up to 4A and 5A, which is where they belong if they remain in D1

 

But that won't happen anytime soon because, ironically, the current D1 privates know it will be the end of State Championships as they know them for several years...until they buckle and start openly recruiting (which they would).

 

They want to remain exactly where they are under the guise that they have limited budgets and can't afford the travel. Please!

 

They want to stay where they are because they know they have a distinct advantage over their public school competition of similar enrollment. You know I'm right.

 

I could live with the small rural publics competing with the small metro publics if all the privates were in their own division. I would even be for reducing the D1 classes from 5 to 4. Not quite 42, now is it?

 

Ok, I believe developer covered most of this, but I'm gonna give it to ya from the horse's mouth so to speak, as I currently work for one of the previously maligned small privates...

 

First, What makes you think all the small privates belong in 4 or 5a? I believe if you will check out last year (the first year of the 1.8 multiplier) you will find that NO privates won any state championships. So would you say that the 1, 2, and 3a schools that DID win also belong in 4 or 5a? I doubt it...because, and I don't want you to mistake what I am about to say, you are incredibly biased and prejudiced against private schools, not some casual observer like you claim. As evidence I offer the other statements in your post...

 

Second, there is every chance that the multiplier ended most of our chances at a State Title as last year evidenced. But I thought that wasn't the purpose, I thought the purpose was to be 'fair'. Notice that contrary to your veiled accusation the DI privates not only stayed after the 1.8 but we certainly did NOT start recruiting athletes. Thus, your assumption shows how rabidly anti-private your thoughts are...assuming the worst when all evidence shows the opposite.

 

THird, if you had any clue about the small religious privates you would know that most of us operate on a deficit budget...we charge less in tuition than it costs us to educate the kids, so we are constantly raising money to stay open and to provide the services we provide. Our school charges about $6500 per year tuition in the high school...that amount just covers Staff salaries and monthly expenses. All other expenses come from donations and fees. So don't think travel doesn't strain us...if you don't believe me come and see the old bus we keep working (somehow) so we can drive teams to places that aren't too far away instead of renting a bus. Further, our teachers and coaches make LESS than teachers and coaches in the Hamilton County system and do MORE work (average is over 5 periods a day with 2-3 preparations...I have 5 with 3 not including labs), so don't come on here giving me a "PLEASE!" about money...you haven't an inkling.

 

Fourth, why would you think you have any idea about why the small privates do anything? Since you haven't a clue about anything else regarding their behaviors, or their finances, I don't think you are a very reliable source to consult about intentions...even though you think you are right.

 

Fifth, finally the truth comes out...you could live with publics playing publics. I see now. I tell you what, go watch Alcoa or Huntingdon or Milan or Smith County, then come back and tell me how much better the multiplied privates are. Those are all GREAT programs that are as good as any privates around. Some are better than any DI privates have ever been. But I bet they don't belong in 4 or 5a...and I bet you would be for playing them. Funny how that works isn't it? Not to me.

[croz6110]

Developer will enjoy this post as him and I have hashed it out on here before.

 

There are pros and cons on each side of this debate with it all evening out in the end.

As I've said before, I have nothing against private schools, and I don't think that they put small public schools at a great disadvantage.

If people want to complain about where private students live, have their public schools become open zoned. That'll even it up.

A multiplier may somewhat be the right thing to do but 1.8 is very drastic.

I say 1.2 at the most if there is one at all.

I used to think that privates should just play privates, but after discussing topics like these on CoachT, I've become more informed on the matter.(I'm still not an expert, though.)

Alot people use this as an excuse why they can't win.

You still have to beat whoever is front of you.

Work harder and do it.

Just look at my signature.

[tnsddeveloper]

Developer will enjoy this post as him and I have hashed it out on here before.

 

There are pros and cons on each side of this debate with it all evening out in the end.

As I've said before, I have nothing against private schools, and I don't think that they put small public schools at a great disadvantage.

If people want to complain about where private students live, have their public schools become open zoned. That'll even it up.

A multiplier may somewhat be the right thing to do but 1.8 is very drastic.

I say 1.2 at the most if there is one at all.

I used to think that privates should just play privates, but after discussing topics like these on CoachT, I've become more informed on the matter.(I'm still not an expert, though.)

Alot people use this as an excuse why they can't win.

You still have to beat whoever is front of you.

Work harder and do it.

Just look at my signature.

Excellent post and I think it brings up an excellent topic that gets glossed over by public supporters (or privates haters ... but I'm a glass half full guy). That topic is the "open zone". Croz said it ... lets discuss. I second the motion.

 

Ahemmmm .... Alcoa, Maryville, Hillsboro, Magnets, etc.

[lazarus]

"...it brings up an excellent topic that gets glossed over by public supporters (or privates haters ... but I'm a glass half full guy). That topic is the "open zone". "

 

actually that glass doesnt hold water at all, but that's how you public-haters are.

"open zone" may feel good rolling off the tongue, but it is entirely without meaning.

to begin with, i continue to await (with bated breath) that list of the mythical "closed zone" publics, who truly have zero students who live outside their zone. alcoa, maryville, hillsboro have enrollment rules that are essentially the same as all the other public schools in their classifications. no one is crying about "open zone" publics, because there isnt anyone to cry about it. (well, except for you)

 

there was an attempt at pressing this point not too long ago, and someone gave me a trio of supposedly closed zone public schools to compare with alcoa, maryville, and riverdale. as it turned out, the supposed closed zone schools; farragut, bearden, and knox central (as i recall) had far superior overall athletic programs to alcoa, maryville, and riverdale.

 

magnets, i just dont know. that is different sort of animal, and relatively new. i prefer to have opinions that can be substantiated with adequate data, rather than just those which make me feel good.

[tnsddeveloper]

actually that glass doesnt hold water at all, but that's how you public-haters are.

Oh no ... no public hater here ... just trying to curb the biased innuendo that you and your cronies toss out.

 

"open zone" may feel good rolling off the tongue, but it is entirely without meaning.

to begin with, i continue to await (with bated breath) that list of the mythical "closed zone" publics, who truly have zero students who live outside their zone.

There are tons of "closed zone" schools. But what you are insinuating is that there are some "closed zone" schools that have kids that attend from outside that zone. I have a relative of Lebanon football lore that lived smack dab in Mt. Juliet but attended Lebanon. You can't stop people from cheating ... but you sure can punish the heck out of the schools that get caught with one.

 

alcoa, maryville, hillsboro have enrollment rules that are essentially the same as all the other public schools in their classifications. no one is crying about "open zone" publics, because there isnt anyone to cry about it. (well, except for you)

Oh, I'm not crying about it. I'm just pointing out the obvious. I'm Captain Obvious. How many public school systems can you name that allow kids outside of the county that they are housed in to attend their?

 

there was an attempt at pressing this point not too long ago, and someone gave me a trio of supposedly closed zone public schools to compare with alcoa, maryville, and riverdale. as it turned out, the supposed closed zone schools; farragut, bearden, and knox central (as i recall) had far superior overall athletic programs to alcoa, maryville, and riverdale.

 

magnets, i just dont know. that is different sort of animal, and relatively new. i prefer to have opinions that can be substantiated with adequate data, rather than just those which make me feel good.

Right.

[lazarus]

"There are tons of "closed zone" schools. But what you are insinuating is that there are some "closed zone" schools that have kids that attend from outside that zone. "

 

oh, tons? not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but tons. can you give me a list (a ton long)?

every time someone names a school as being genuinely closed zone, i find that it is not strictly the truth. not to say that one doesnt exist (that and an ivory bill woodpecker), but the longer i go without finding one, the more i doubt it.

 

i am sorry, i didnt mean to insinuate anything. i am flat out stating that there are kids from "outside the zone" in every school.

 

"You can't stop people from cheating ... but you sure can punish the heck out of the schools that get caught with one"

 

punish them for what? by who? tssaa has no zoning or residency requirements in order to play at a school. they have rules regarding transfers, but the schools can play anyone from anywhere... as long as they start out playing at that school.

 

"How many public school systems can you name that allow kids outside of the county that they are housed in to attend their?"

 

i cannot think of any that do not allow it.

[croz6110]

"There are tons of "closed zone" schools. But what you are insinuating is that there are some "closed zone" schools that have kids that attend from outside that zone. "

 

oh, tons? not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but tons. can you give me a list (a ton long)?

every time someone names a school as being genuinely closed zone, i find that it is not strictly the truth. not to say that one doesnt exist (that and an ivory bill woodpecker), but the longer i go without finding one, the more i doubt it.

 

i am sorry, i didnt mean to insinuate anything. i am flat out stating that there are kids from "outside the zone" in every school.

 

"You can't stop people from cheating ... but you sure can punish the heck out of the schools that get caught with one"

 

punish them for what? by who? tssaa has no zoning or residency requirements in order to play at a school. they have rules regarding transfers, but the schools can play anyone from anywhere... as long as they start out playing at that school.

 

"How many public school systems can you name that allow kids outside of the county that they are housed in to attend their?"

 

i cannot think of any that do not allow it.

Well, I know Smith County schools are closed zone.

I went to school at Gordonsville all my life, and my kids go there now.

My kids went to school in Dekalb County up until last year as we lived in Alexandria. When we moved to Gordonsville last year and enrolled the kids in school, just a Smith County address or P.O. Box wasn't enough.

We had to provide an electric bill to prove we lived inside of the county.

Granted, there may be kids that live outside of Smith County that attend school there, however, it's not known to me if they do.

There are always ways to get around the system.

[926]

OK ... I'll respond to your incoherent post!

So yours is just an "active interest" but everyone else (or maybe just Baldcoach) is obsessed? Seems a little self serving.

Why is that where they belong? Are they walking around with mice in their pockets? Are the magic mice that double the already almost double multiplier. I will be proud to tell my kid that unperforming public school people think he is twice the man that their kids are.

Huh? Openly recruit ... uh, not if it is against the rules.

You really, really have no idea what you are talking about. Let's talk about budgets. From a recent Daily News Journal story ... it costs $9000/student a year for public schools to educate and offer services (extracurriculars) to students. That doesn't include the cost of facilities like the school building itself and athletic facilities. Most of the ABC privates hover in the $6K - $8K. That pays for everything. The teachers are WAY underpaid compared to public school counterparts (WAY!). Budget is the THE issue at every private school.

Really ... I guess someone forgot to tell Trousdale, South Pitt, Gordonsville, Alcoa, Huntingdon, Milan, etc.

 

 

Wow, you sure found a way to make sense of what was initially incoherent to you.

• Check how many posts I have on this subject during the past two years.
  
• You got a little off track with the mice. I'm sure there's an abundance of private school parents who tell their kids they are inherently better than their public counterparts on a regular basis.
  
• Read S-L-O-W-L-Y. I said that the current D1 privates would openly recruit after they went to D2. Don't let your emotions get in the way of your comprehension.
  
• The privates are over budget and the teachers are under paid. Yet, I can't remember a private school closing. As a matter of fact, I believe there have been more than a few that came into existence in the last 20 years. As for the teachers doing more for less... Why? You guys make it sound like you are the victim of some contract swindle and are bound. Don't like the pay? Go somewhere else. Don't want to leave? Stay where you are and live with the pay.
  
• Touche'....those schools ARE the giant killers, aren't they?
  

This serves as my response to BC, as well.

 

This is the last you're going to hear from me on this subject, so blast away. If you want to be enlightened with my prose and opinions on this tired subject, find all my posts and look on pages 5, 6, and 7. This was the extent of my input at the height of my interest in this matter. My posts on the subject are scattered throughout those 3 pages and my thoughts, ideas and opinions are covered within those posts. There's enough abrasiveness in there to keep you guys chapped at least until after Christmas. And, yes... touche' IS my favorite French word.

Edited November 17, 2006 by 926