The Merit System

[CoachT]

Would the perception of schools be that they will be placed where they WILL be successful or where they have the chance to be successful? Would the schools have expectations that no system can provide? I know this is probably unanswerable, so why post it, but just a thought to get you smarter folks to looking at all aspects.

 

If it should work the fans will take the credit. If it doesn't, the TSSAA will take the blame.

[lazarus]

"Would the perception of schools be that they will be placed where they WILL be successful or where they have the chance to be successful? Would the schools have expectations that no system can provide?"

 

i hate to horn in, when you specifically asked for input from the smarter people on here. i am pretty certain i dont fit that description. several people have even told me that i am among the dumbest. none the less...

 

i think the perception would be to be placed where teams have a reasonably equal chance to be successful, but that perception already exists. the creation of classifications is an implied promise that schools of similar capabilities will be placed together.

as for whether that is an expectation that no system can provide, there is no way to say without trying. i'd say it is pretty obvious the current system cannot.

 

in all honesty, i believe that an equitable classification system is possible. there are certainly plenty of proposals to choose from, half a dozen on this thread alone.

how can we justify not making an attempt?

 

lastly, the answer to the other pressing question: no worthwhile sport penalizes you for beating the defense down the field.

Edited November 24, 2006 by lazarus

[VolunteerGeneral]

I think it would mean didfferent things to diffferent teams. For a team like Maryville who would obviously be in the top tier, it would certainly mean that the road to a championship would get a bit rougher, but I also feel like programs like Maryville that are entrenched in tradition would have no problem with stepping up to the challenge.

 

Now for teams like Warren County whose programs have been really down for years it would, I believe, inject a new sense of hope. Let`s face it, some teams like Warren County just haven`t been able to reasonably think they have a chance to do well in the playoffs or even make them. They`ve been forced into playing competiton that is better than them based solely on the number of kids at the school. I can`t help but believe if they were moved down into a tier of teams that were more on their level that it would really improve their quality of football. I have to also believe that when a team goes through a period of time without winning many games that you`ll start losing players because there will be some that will just say "I don`t want to play if I`m gonna get beat every week". The same goes for the casual fans. If a team is winning games then those casual fans start to attend games again.

 

I used Warren County as an example because we sometimes get stuck in our thinking that this is just a 1A and 2A problem focused around private schools. I think the merit system is more than that. I think it`s just an overall better way to improve the quality of play in high school sports.

[soccerdad]

lastly, the answer to the other pressing question: no worthwhile sport penalizes you for beating the defense down the field.

 

Well, is that any goofier than say "ineligible man downfield" How do we know if he's married or not? Anyway shouldn't all who want a pass be allowed (in a democratic fashion) to go for it?

 

I like the idea of the merit approach because it promotes success and competition. Unlike the current form that seeks to penalize. However.....

 

What about the recruiting issue, how do we handle it? Do we allow it to continue and those who are the best recruiters rise to the very top and we see our top levels being dominated by these recruiting mills, who them have to duke it out among themselves?

[BigG]

What about the recruiting issue, how do we handle it? Do we allow it to continue and those who are the best recruiters rise to the very top and we see our top levels being dominated by these recruiting mills, who them have to duke it out among themselves?

I think you may be confusing recruiting with awarding financial aid. One is prohibited, the other is not. D1 can award financial aid, but then the student cannot play for that school. Neither D1 or D2 can legally recruit.

[CoachT]

Well, is that any goofier than say "ineligible man downfield" How do we know if he's married or not? Anyway shouldn't all who want a pass be allowed (in a democratic fashion) to go for it?

 

I like the idea of the merit approach because it promotes success and competition. Unlike the current form that seeks to penalize. However.....

 

What about the recruiting issue, how do we handle it? Do we allow it to continue and those who are the best recruiters rise to the very top and we see our top levels being dominated by these recruiting mills, who them have to duke it out among themselves?

I would think that under this system it would be come one, come all.

[lazarus]

"I would think that under this system it would be come one, come all."

 

in my mind, recruiting is a separate question.

however, i fail to see why a merit system would create any more recruiting than goes on under the current (or any other) system.

 

 

oh yeah, and i should probably mention that my middle child played hs soccer.

[CoachT]

"I would think that under this system it would be come one, come all."

 

in my mind, recruiting is a separate question.

however, i fail to see why a merit system would create any more recruiting than goes on under the current (or any other) system.

oh yeah, and i should probably mention that my middle child played hs soccer.

What I meant was that everyone would have to be treated the same. I wasn't talking about recruiting per se.

[Solomon]

Here's my attempt I posted a while back that just considers football. I've not thought other sports. But here it is nonetheless.

 

No classifications based on enrollment. In fact, enrollment plays only a small part in my scnerio. To begin, Everyone is lumped together in a large pool. There would be 4 levels based on school's self-perceived ability - A, B, C, D. A is highest level, D is lowest. At some point before each season, each school designates what level title it will be playing for. All requests would go through a TSSAA review committee of member schools, equally selected. If the committee feels a school is "playing down" (i.e. - a perennial powerhouse asking to play B or a legitimate B asking to play C), then the commitee can place them in what they feel is the correct level. Another catch is that there would be enrollment floors. For example, a school 1,000 students (current 4A) could play no lower than C level, or something as such. If a team has a great success in one level (3 state championship appearances in a 5 year span maybe or other determinants?), then the team would automatically be moved to the next highest level for at least one season.

 

The TSSAA would not designate teams to play in districts or regions, instead the schools may form conferences as in the days of old to choose to be an independent. This would allow a school to decide to travel as little or as much as the school may like. Conferences are entirely up to member schools and could range from teams of all levels, or teams playing a certian level or similar level (i.e. maybe a group of close proximity schools all will be in level C and D) may choose to play together. But playing and winning against schools in your own level or a higher level would be rewarded greater than against schools at a lower level through some type of formula.

 

The formula's makeup itself is a different post for a different day, but one that all feels is fair and rewards playing similar competition. It would be made to where a team playing in the B level that goes 10-0 against 10 D level opponents would in theory be punished and possibly not make the playoffs behind a team that goes 7-3 against A and B level opponents. It would be designed to where each team in a level starts out the season with 0 points and is entirely based on that season's performance and performance of your opponents. In short, playing equal or better teams is encouraged through the system.

 

Each level would have 16 teams that make the playoffs. The 16 teams that make the playoffs would be the top 16 teams in the level's rankings. Once the 16 teams are decided, playoff brackets would incorporate a bit of regional location into seeding so we wouldn't have a situation where Cloudland is playing at Lake County (I can't think of a greater travel scnerio, that's 8 hours or more, got to be!). In the end, the two teams playing for the Class A title are your two best teams in the state, you don't have private schools dominating smaller public schools in the enrollment based system, public and private doesn't matter, open enrollemt doesn't matter, and teams are playing against genuinely equal talent teams.

 

Thoughts?

Edited November 24, 2006 by Solomon

[tnsddeveloper]

Here's my attempt I posted a while back that just considers football. I've not thought other sports. But here it is nonetheless.

 

No classifications based on enrollment. In fact, enrollment plays only a small part in my scnerio. To begin, Everyone is lumped together in a large pool. There would be 4 levels based on school's self-perceived ability - A, B, C, D. A is highest level, D is lowest. At some point before each season, each school designates what level title it will be playing for. All requests would go through a TSSAA review committee of member schools, equally selected. If the committee feels a school is "playing down" (i.e. - a perennial powerhouse asking to play B or a legitimate B asking to play C), then the commitee can place them in what they feel is the correct level. Another catch is that there would be enrollment floors. For example, a school 1,000 students (current 4A) could play no lower than C level, or something as such. If a team has a great success in one level (3 state championship appearances in a 5 year span maybe or other determinants?), then the team would automatically be moved to the next highest level for at least one season.

 

The TSSAA would not designate teams to play in districts or regions, instead the schools may form conferences as in the days of old to choose to be an independent. This would allow a school to decide to travel as little or as much as the school may like. Conferences are entirely up to member schools and could range from teams of all levels, or teams playing a certian level or similar level (i.e. maybe a group of close proximity schools all will be in level C and D) may choose to play together. But playing and winning against schools in your own level or a higher level would be rewarded greater than against schools at a lower level through some type of formula.

 

The formula's makeup itself is a different post for a different day, but one that all feels is fair and rewards playing similar competition. It would be made to where a team playing in the B level that goes 10-0 against 10 D level opponents would in theory be punished and possibly not make the playoffs behind a team that goes 7-3 against A and B level opponents. It would be designed to where each team in a level starts out the season with 0 points and is entirely based on that season's performance and performance of your opponents. In short, playing equal or better teams is encouraged through the system.

 

Each level would have 16 teams that make the playoffs. The 16 teams that make the playoffs would be the top 16 teams in the level's rankings. Once the 16 teams are decided, playoff brackets would incorporate a bit of regional location into seeding so we wouldn't have a situation where Cloudland is playing at Lake County (I can't think of a greater travel scnerio, that's 8 hours or more, got to be!). In the end, the two teams playing for the Class A title are your two best teams in the state, you don't have private schools dominating smaller public schools in the enrollment based system, public and private doesn't matter, open enrollemt doesn't matter, and teams are playing against genuinely equal talent teams.

 

Thoughts?

I can see a lot of schools having a problem with your scenario. Specifically, the fact that a committee would decide where schools are placed. I personally think that committees are subjective and have a very hard time being objective. Some of the other merit plans are performance-based, taking the committee opinions out of the equation.

 

Beyond the committee ... I like the rest.

Edited November 25, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[Solomon]

I can see a lot of schools having a problem with your scenario. Specifically, the fact that a committee would decide where schools are placed. I personally think that committees are subjective and have a very hard time being objective. Some of the other merit plans are performance-based, taking the committee opinions out of the equation.

 

Beyond the committee ... I like the rest.

 

Well, in my scnerio, the committee would serve more as a review board than to actually place the schools. Let's say it all goes through and a Maryville or a MBA signs up to play in the B division, then that would be voted down and forced to play up. Or say a Milan or Smith Co signs up to play D ball, then they would be forced to play up to at minimum C level. Maybe put one large school, one medium school, one small school, and one private school on the board from each of the grand divisions of the state? That would seem to cover all interests to me.

 

It's not full-proof I know, and I don't know if you would ever find a perfect plan using a merit system. Maybe after 3-4 years, you could use a cumulative system of points through the years to use as guidance.

[tnsddeveloper]

Well, in my scnerio, the committee would serve more as a review board than to actually place the schools. Let's say it all goes through and a Maryville or a MBA signs up to play in the B division, then that would be voted down and forced to play up. Or say a Milan or Smith Co signs up to play D ball, then they would be forced to play up to at minimum C level. Maybe put one large school, one medium school, one small school, and one private school on the board from each of the grand divisions of the state? That would seem to cover all interests to me.

 

It's not full-proof I know, and I don't know if you would ever find a perfect plan using a merit system. Maybe after 3-4 years, you could use a cumulative system of points through the years to use as guidance.

I'm just more worried about the subjective nature of the committee. Lets say that they are all from public schools - which most committees are now. Let's say Chattanooga Chrisitian chooses to play in class C ... but the committes says no, they should be in A since they are a private school. What kind of checks and balances would keep that from happening. Privates will end up with another D2.