Kicks From The Mark (PK's)

[BigDog7]

First, congratulations to Father Ryan on winning the D2 AA this year. Well done.

 

Second, this is not about the strategy of putting ten or eleven men behind the ball (packing it in), although it will seem that way.

 

Third, this is not sour grapes even though CBHS finished second for the fourth year in a row. Having watched a combination of my two sons playing there over the last six years, I believe year in and year out it is one of the top, if not the top, program in the state.

 

Fourth, my wife is tired of hearing me talk about this and finally told me to go tell someone who cares!

 

Keeping is short, I believe KFTM should be removed as a way of settling playoff games. It encourages teams to pack it in and play for a tie, knowing the odds change dramatically if you can get to that point. I believe packing it in is a very good and legitimate strategy for protecting a lead. Last year's final saw Baylor go up 1-0 on CBHS and they protected the lead. An excellent strategy used in the right situation and they won in regulation - as it should be.

 

In the six years I've watched state, CBHS has been eliminated three of those years in PK's. In each case, the opposition ended up, some in the beginning, packing it in and playing for a tie because they were tired or refused to engage against a better team. That is within the rules, so no problem. I just believe it does not produce a true champion. CBHS also won a quarterfinal game in PK's one year. In my opinion, that was luck on our part.

 

To me, packing it in is not the villain, it is KFTM. It rewards the strategy, when the strategy would most likely not be used otherwise. The game is not settled by the team, and it only sets someone - a keeper or a shooter - to be the goat in the loss. To me, it is similar to shooting free throws to decide a basketball game. Speaking of basketball, those of us old enough to remember, the NCAA put in the shot clock for a very similar reason years ago. Teams would go into the four corner stall, and the game became a travesty.

 

My suggestion, and I saw it used in SuperClubs - once with my son's team and once as a referee. Play the two tens to completion. Still tied? Go to 7v7 golden goal for five minutes. Still tied? Go to 6v6 golden goal. Keep doing that, and a team will win and it will be decided by the players playing the game - not trying to outguess each other at the PK line. BTW, neither of the two games took more than the 7v7 period. It changes the game dramatically.

 

I plan on suggesting this to the TSSAA, but who knows how that will be taken??

 

Again, a sincere congrats to Father Ryan this year, BGA in 2006, and University School of Nashville in 2004. Those were all wins of which you should be proud.

[Canesoverhere]

Several years ago, we played an event in Nashville in which our game (finals), were postponed as the previous final had ended in a draw. After the OT periods went scoreless, they went to their tie-breaker. A Golden Goal of a different method. This is from memory so if there are corrections (he said on Coach T thinking perhaps someone MAY have an opinion (LOL)), they are welcome here.

 

Each coach had to select the numbers of 11 players on a stack rank as to how they would be removed from the field on play one-by-one and submit that list to the officials. They would start this final period and there would be no substitutions. After a period of time (? 5 minutes), one player had to leave the field each minute until the goal was scored. This particular game got down to 2 players on a side, (keeper and forward) and the goal was finally scored.

 

I may also share that it was standing-room-only around the entire perimeter of this field. Everyone in the complex heard what was going on and they all came to watch. Much more entertaining than a PK shoot-out. Likely a better way to end the match.

 

My only hesitation in endorsing this would be that the players should play the game using the same rules they will be expected to play under in the next level of soccer. Obviously, this isn't it.

[dins8]

First, congratulations to Father Ryan on winning the D2 AA this year. Well done.

 

Second, this is not about the strategy of putting ten or eleven men behind the ball (packing it in), although it will seem that way.

 

Third, this is not sour grapes even though CBHS finished second for the fourth year in a row. Having watched a combination of my two sons playing there over the last six years, I believe year in and year out it is one of the top, if not the top, program in the state.

 

Fourth, my wife is tired of hearing me talk about this and finally told me to go tell someone who cares!

 

Keeping is short, I believe KFTM should be removed as a way of settling playoff games. It encourages teams to pack it in and play for a tie, knowing the odds change dramatically if you can get to that point. I believe packing it in is a very good and legitimate strategy for protecting a lead. Last year's final saw Baylor go up 1-0 on CBHS and they protected the lead. An excellent strategy used in the right situation and they won in regulation - as it should be.

 

In the six years I've watched state, CBHS has been eliminated three of those years in PK's. In each case, the opposition ended up, some in the beginning, packing it in and playing for a tie because they were tired or refused to engage against a better team. That is within the rules, so no problem. I just believe it does not produce a true champion. CBHS also won a quarterfinal game in PK's one year. In my opinion, that was luck on our part.

 

To me, packing it in is not the villain, it is KFTM. It rewards the strategy, when the strategy would most likely not be used otherwise. The game is not settled by the team, and it only sets someone - a keeper or a shooter - to be the goat in the loss. To me, it is similar to shooting free throws to decide a basketball game. Speaking of basketball, those of us old enough to remember, the NCAA put in the shot clock for a very similar reason years ago. Teams would go into the four corner stall, and the game became a travesty.

 

My suggestion, and I saw it used in SuperClubs - once with my son's team and once as a referee. Play the two tens to completion. Still tied? Go to 7v7 golden goal for five minutes. Still tied? Go to 6v6 golden goal. Keep doing that, and a team will win and it will be decided by the players playing the game - not trying to outguess each other at the PK line. BTW, neither of the two games took more than the 7v7 period. It changes the game dramatically.

 

I plan on suggesting this to the TSSAA, but who knows how that will be taken??

 

Again, a sincere congrats to Father Ryan this year, BGA in 2006, and University School of Nashville in 2004. Those were all wins of which you should be proud.

[dins8]

I love your idea! However, I doubt it will ever pass...especially since the pros always go to PKs. Think about it...2 of the last 4 World Cups have been decided by PKs. This year's Champions League Final was decided by PKs. PKs are the reason my wife complains about soccer. She claims that all big games come down to luck (PKs). I would rather do it like basketball...still tied...keep going....still tied after 120 minutes...go some more. I doubt TSAA will ever go for removing players, but I agree with you, it is TERRIBLE to decide a game on PKs.

[Whitey]

I like the PK shootout to decide a winner at the end of regulation and overtime. I have always found it to be one of the most intense moments not only in soccer but in all sports. A coach should spend time teaching their players how to take PK's and the Keepers on how to handle themselves in a PK situation. It is a great part of the game -- my opinion of course. Always as we would head towards the end of the season and tournament time, we would spend a part of each practice simulating a shootout situation. I would go over what the refs would do and how they would handle the assignments and would pretend to be a ref so they kids would know what to expect. The player reduction method for settling a championship is exciting for indoor soccer but I would not suggest using it for outdoors.

[MD4Sports]

Interesting topic for conversation, but there are plenty of pitfalls no matter what you choose.

 

I think NFHS rules are reasonable. Two tens no matter what, then two fives golden goal then pks. The game has to end at some point and after 110 minutes, most teams are gassed, especially with the intensity of the state tournament.

 

Are pks better than fatigued players running (walking) around till someone gives up a goal? That's up for debate.

 

I also think the better team can find a way to score even if the opponent "packs it in."

 

Most coaches do place some emphasis on pks, realizing that a critical game may come down to just that scenario. While there is some luck with pks, I think they even out in the long run. CBHS may have lost four straight state finals, but I recall they also won four straight state finals in the past.

 

I think this debate will continue for a while.

[BigDog7]

Interesting topic for conversation, but there are plenty of pitfalls no matter what you choose.

 

I think NFHS rules are reasonable. Two tens no matter what, then two fives golden goal then pks. The game has to end at some point and after 110 minutes, most teams are gassed, especially with the intensity of the state tournament.

 

Are pks better than fatigued players running (walking) around till someone gives up a goal? That's up for debate.

 

I also think the better team can find a way to score even if the opponent "packs it in."

 

Most coaches do place some emphasis on pks, realizing that a critical game may come down to just that scenario. While there is some luck with pks, I think they even out in the long run. CBHS may have lost four straight state finals, but I recall they also won four straight state finals in the past.

 

I think this debate will continue for a while.

 

 

Good points, no doubt.

 

Across championship teams in all sports, I believe one would find both fitness and bench strength. That is part of what makes them good. A lot of time, the bench ends up being a key part of the victory. It's the totality of the team. It brings strategic substitution into the strategy of the game. I prefer to think of it as someone scoring a goal instead of giving up a goal, but regardless, even if it is walking, the game is decided by the players playing the game.

 

A few years ago I would have agreed with you on the better team finding a way to score even if the opponent "packs it in". However, having watched it now on numerous occassions, I will say it is very, very tough! The D2 A final between St. George's and Webb was a perfect example. In what was arguably the biggest mismatch in a state final, St. George's was less than 3 minutes from going to PK's against a team it completely dominated and was clearly superior to. The statistics will validate that statement. Webb had everybody back and completely relied on a hot keeper (and boy, was he hot!! Hats off to that kid!). Going to PK's would have dramatically increased Webb's odds, yet it would have had very little to do with the team. St. George's was firing at will. I'm not knocking Webb. They are to be congratulated for their run, and I wish them well in the future. I don't know if their keeper is always that good, but he was special in that game!

 

Just for clarification, I wish that CBHS had won four in a row. Actually, it was two runs of three. Seven of the last eight years have been in the finals, with three wins and four seconds.

 

I do agree I think this debate will continue for a long while, but I remain in the corner of playing it out on the field.

[soccerpro1]

I've thought as an alternative to KFTM the teams could just go in the gym and see who hit the most shoot free throws out of ten attempts - about as satisfying as the current system.

[blankguy]

The main part you look at is the amount of time that is being played. You obviously can't take a player off each min or keep playing overtime mainly because you are constantly moving and they believe that Say you make it to the 150th min of overtime and a kid passes out from fatigue that is putting the players at somewhat of a health risk and with the heat as it was for the D2 AA final it was humid and hot and you can tell that most players were ready to just stop and that was with a 50 min delay.

I think they should do the kicks like FIFA where the players that were on the field are the ones that take the kicks. So you don't have fresh legs kicking as apposed everyone is tired to an extent to when they take the kicks. I think players like taking Pks because that is part of the game and it's always been part of the game.

Tactically if you are a coach and realize,"well we don't have the offense to beat this team" then the best option would be to play say a 5-4-1 or a 4-5-1 to play defensively minded or "play for pks". If you have a keeper like the Webb keeper, wouldn't you use that to your advantage because soccer is about strategy and not about the players that play. If the eleven that are on the field believe in the system and understand that system, what does it matter if they the better team or the worse team but if they know if they just hold out for 110 mins, they have a great shot at winning if it goes to pks.

[TheRaider]

The main part you look at is the amount of time that is being played. You obviously can't take a player off each min or keep playing overtime mainly because you are constantly moving and they believe that Say you make it to the 150th min of overtime and a kid passes out from fatigue that is putting the players at somewhat of a health risk and with the heat as it was for the D2 AA final it was humid and hot and you can tell that most players were ready to just stop and that was with a 50 min delay.

I think they should do the kicks like FIFA where the players that were on the field are the ones that take the kicks. So you don't have fresh legs kicking as apposed everyone is tired to an extent to when they take the kicks. I think players like taking Pks because that is part of the game and it's always been part of the game.

Tactically if you are a coach and realize,"well we don't have the offense to beat this team" then the best option would be to play say a 5-4-1 or a 4-5-1 to play defensively minded or "play for pks". If you have a keeper like the Webb keeper, wouldn't you use that to your advantage because soccer is about strategy and not about the players that play. If the eleven that are on the field believe in the system and understand that system, what does it matter if they the better team or the worse team but if they know if they just hold out for 110 mins, they have a great shot at winning if it goes to pks.

 

Ok, as a player, I would hate being taken off after a certain amount of time. The pk system has been that way for almost a hundred years. It works, why change it. Pks are some of the most intense moments of my life. Like said earlier, pulling players is good in indoor, not as much in outdoor 2 Players playing on a field that is 120 yards long is pretty riduculous if you think about it. Although, i do respect other opinions, i just believe that pks have always been something to look forward too during a big game. And in excess, pks are more than just luck, believe me on this one. practice helps a TON............... and what webb keeper are you talking about?

[blankguy]

Ok, as a player, I would hate being taken off after a certain amount of time. The pk system has been that way for almost a hundred years. It works, why change it. Pks are some of the most intense moments of my life. Like said earlier, pulling players is good in indoor, not as much in outdoor 2 Players playing on a field that is 120 yards long is pretty riduculous if you think about it. Although, i do respect other opinions, i just believe that pks have always been something to look forward too during a big game. And in excess, pks are more than just luck, believe me on this one. practice helps a TON............... and what webb keeper are you talking about?

 

Well I guess you got the wrong impression. I was pretty much pointing out why there should be Pks at the end of a game. I'm totally for Pks. If you battle for 110 mins and it's even then the it's better to go to Pks where the keepers have kept you in the game or the scorers who have scored in the game decide the game that way. I would rather see the emotion from that then emotion you would get then let's say a coin flip. I remember in a college match where we knew the other team was better but the only way to really knock them out of the tourney was to go to Pks because we knew our keeper was better at them. (PKS really show how good or bad keepers are to be honest, it's not really about guessing.)

I'm talking about the one that played in the finals.. was there another one? He kept his team in the game and his players knew it.

Fans may not agree with the system but as players say and know that PKS are a great part of the game.

[OnlineLC]

The European Cup Winners Cup used to be decided by a coin toss in the even of a tie back in the 60's and 70's. PK's may not be ideal but a coin toss would be a brutal way to be eliminated from a major tournament.

 

http://www.the-english-football-archive.co...rs_cup/1970.htm