Franklin Tournament Revised - Franklin wins

[PageMan]

There are now 15 teams in this tournament with 3 pools of 5 teams each.

See details on 2008 Tournaments sub-forum

[PageMan]

There was some controversey Friday as apparently Summertown did not receive the revised schedule and was late arriving for their 4 PM match with Rossview. Summertown was out of school and some of the players arrived seperately at around 4:30 without Coach Steve Keeton. The official made the players start the match without any coaches and Summertown was behind 8-11 when Coach Keeton arrived. Summertown ended up losing the first game, 18-25, but came back to win game 2, 25-23. The match was decided by game 3 where Rossview won, 15-5. After the match, I talked with Coach Keeton and he said they were gong to file a complaint with the TSSAA about the official involved. The question I have is whether Summertown should have been given a forfeit for being so late to the match or should play have started without any coaches at the match? Any opinions on the situation?

[play4keeps]

There was some controversey Friday as apparently Summertown did not receive the revised schedule and was late arriving for their 4 PM match with Rossview. Summertown was out of school and some of the players arrived seperately at around 4:30 without Coach Steve Keeton. The official made the players start the match without any coaches and Summertown was behind 8-11 when Coach Keeton arrived. Summertown ended up losing the first game, 18-25, but came back to win game 2, 25-23. The match was decided by game 3 where Rossview won, 15-5. After the match, I talked with Coach Keeton and he said they were gong to file a complaint with the TSSAA about the official involved. The question I have is whether Summertown should have been given a forfeit for being so late to the match or should play have started without any coaches at the match? Any opinions on the situation?

 

 

Apparently there was quite a bit of confusion with the late drop of Mt Juliet from the tournament. Wilson Central never received the information at all and had no idea that our pools had changed -- fortunately we were scheduled to play at 4pm and were still scheduled for 4pm yesterday so we were there and ready to play. We were somehow left off the email list (as apparently was Summertown). I was told later that this change was made on Tuesday so there is no reason that Franklin couldn't have insured that all the teams were aware of the changes. I wouldn't sanction Summertown for something that was Franklin's error and I believe Coach Keeton has every right to protest...in fact, I didn't think a team was allow to step on the court without a coach present.

[PageMan]

Well, play4keeps, what happened is done and there is nothing anyone can do now but congratulate Franklin on winning their tournament. I will post all the scores tomorrow as I am to tired to do it now.

[PHargis]

PM, this was an unfortunate situation and, while unsettling, schools sometimes have to dropout at the last minute for a lot of the tournaments. Those tournament directors who hold these events, many times, usually try to keep another participant in mind to fill in if its possible. In this case, evidently another school could not be found or was not found. We have seen some directors have to be very nimble at the last moments of a Tourney and make phone calls to make all of the participants notified. Its one of the unfortunate parts of holding a Tourney. It's something that has to be done, at times. Those participants, normally, have given the Director their cell numbers or emails, to make sure communications get thru. Somehow, it looks as if this was one of two forfeitures that may have had to have been given at this Tournament. None others have been reported this year although it could have. While the rule is unclear, the forfeiture was for one set of a match. This is a pretty drastic action, especially when Schools drive some distances to play in a tournament and should be, as you understand, kept from happening at all costs. No one wants complaints to be filed for scheduling. Thats the last ting tht needs to be done.

A school drop out caused the orginal problem but the communication system broke down later on. The tournament was well attended and looked to be well organized except for these problems. The courtesy of the parents and fans of Franklin High School was certainly a high point of the year.

[PHargis]

PM, this was an unfortunate situation and, while unsettling, schools sometimes have to dropout at the last minute for a lot of the tournaments. Those tournament directors who hold these events, many times, usually try to keep another participant in mind to fill in if its possible. In this case, evidently another school could not be found or was not found. We have seen some directors have to be very nimble at the last moments of a Tourney and make phone calls to make all of the participants notified. Its one of the unfortunate parts of holding a Tourney. It's something that has to be done, at times. Those participants, normally, have given the Director their cell numbers or emails, to make sure communications get thru. Somehow, it looks as if this was one of two forfeitures that may have had to have been given at this Tournament. None others have been reported this year although it could have. While the rule is unclear, the forfeiture was for one set of a match. This is a pretty drastic action, especially when Schools drive some distances to play in a tournament and should be, as you understand, kept from happening at all costs. No one wants complaints to be filed for scheduling. Thats the last ting tht needs to be done.

A school drop out caused the orginal problem but the communication system broke down later on. The tournament was well attended and looked to be well organized except for these problems. The courtesy of the parents and fans of Franklin High School was certainly a high point of the year.

[PageMan]

Here is what Franklin Coach Kim Miller told me about the two situations involving teams who were late to their matches: Summertown did not get the revised schedule for Friday's Pool Play for one reason or another so they did not have to forfeit a game or match. On Saturday, Hillsboro was simply short of players for their 9 AM match with Rossview so a game 1 forfeit of 0-25 was given to them at around 9:15. Summertown did not know about their match and Hillsboro was fully aware they had a match. The two situtations were entirely different. While the situations appeared similiar to me at first, I now understand the reasons for the way they were handled.

 

I had another problem with this tournament in the way the Gold Bracket was set up. The #1 seed did not actually get a bye from the quarter-finals. There was a "play-in" match between the #5 seed and #9 seed and the winner played the #1 seed in a quarter-final match. I felt the play-in match should have been between the #8 and #9 seeds to be fair to the #1 seed. The other quarter-final matches were #4 vs #6, #2 vs #8, and #3 vs #7. I felt the other quarter-final matches should have been #4 vs #5, #2 vs #7, and #3 vs #6. That's just my opinion.

 

I am sorry I caused trouble at the tournament by suggesting that Rossview's 25-0 win in game 1 vs Hillsboro would affect the seeding into the Gold Bracket because the third tie-breaker was fewest points allowed. It seemed unfair to me at the time so I made the statement to some coaches or others. I did not say that the tournament was crooked in any manner as stated to me by Kim Miller. I just stated the scores of the games as they were shown on the scoresheets at each court. It was unfortunate that some teams were late to their matches on both Friday and Saturday causing the confusion on my part.

[PHargis]

Here is what Franklin Coach Kim Miller told me about the two situations involving teams who were late to their matches: Summertown did not get the revised schedule for Friday's Pool Play for one reason or another so they did not have to forfeit a game or match. On Saturday, Hillsboro was simply short of players for their 9 AM match with Rossview so a game 1 forfeit of 0-25 was given to them at around 9:15. Summertown did not know about their match and Hillsboro was fully aware they had a match. The two situtations were entirely different. While the situations appeared similiar to me at first, I now understand the reasons for the way they were handled.

 

I had another problem with this tournament in the way the Gold Bracket was set up. The #1 seed did not actually get a bye from the quarter-finals. There was a "play-in" match between the #5 seed and #9 seed and the winner played the #1 seed in a quarter-final match. I felt the play-in match should have been between the #8 and #9 seeds to be fair to the #1 seed. The other quarter-final matches were #4 vs #6, #2 vs #8, and #3 vs #7. I felt the other quarter-final matches should have been #4 vs #5, #2 vs #7, and #3 vs #6. That's just my opinion.

 

I am sorry I caused trouble at the tournament by suggesting that Rossview's 25-0 win in game 1 vs Hillsboro would affect the seeding into the Gold Bracket because the third tie-breaker was fewest points allowed. It seemed unfair to me at the time so I made the statement to some coaches or others. I did not say that the tournament was crooked in any manner as stated to me by Kim Miller. I just stated the scores of the games as they were shown on the scoresheets at each court. It was unfortunate that some teams were late to their matches on both Friday and Saturday causing the confusion on my part.

Because i was unfamiliar witrh the rules when you told me about the Summertown situation, they started the game as i understand without a coach which is all right with me, I don't care. W?hat is the rule about a School doing this. Is it all right? I understand the School being late in the middle of the day and having the opportunity to look at the Schedule posted on the Wall, the best and largest I have ever seen and very easy to see. The schedule and taking the Court Friday without a coach is the question.

[PageMan]

Sorry, PHargis, I don't know the specific rule about not having a coach present at the start of a match. I guess that a parent could serve as a temporary coach until the head coach arrives, but I don't know that for sure.

[oldsetter]

By rule, game time is forfeit time. There is some gray area on a weekend tournement. You would like to accomadate everyone, but there is a schedule to try to adhear to. I suppose starting a match without a coach is better than the forfeit. There is not a credential check either to positive ID the real coach. So what do you do that is fair to everyone including the teams waiting to play next? And really as far as seeding and brackets go, there are pretty much standard brackets for tournements and such. And the big picture, the W's and L's on a weekend are not worth a nickle on Monday. You are there to work on your game and to get to play teams you normally don't or scrimage the ones you do. Like I said, pretty much meaningless except for the experience of playing (and watching) in a festive atmosphere.

[PHargis]

By rule, game time is forfeit time. There is some gray area on a weekend tournement. You would like to accomadate everyone, but there is a schedule to try to adhear to. I suppose starting a match without a coach is better than the forfeit. There is not a credential check either to positive ID the real coach. So what do you do that is fair to everyone including the teams waiting to play next? And really as far as seeding and brackets go, there are pretty much standard brackets for tournements and such. And the big picture, the W's and L's on a weekend are not worth a nickle on Monday. You are there to work on your game and to get to play teams you normally don't or scrimage the ones you do. Like I said, pretty much meaningless except for the experience of playing (and watching) in a festive atmosphere.

You may be right. Here are some things to consider. Matches after August 26 go tward official team reconds. TSSAA officials at a tournament make them official games. Forfeits as far as Tournament records to be seed per game is counted as 25-0 loss If a School is looking forward to winning the tournament and this time if the year there is some interest in that. Points are tiebreakers. Could effect winning tournament. Ruling in this tournament was 15 minutes after game time is forfeit Time. Your third sentence is important in some Schools travel 200 miles to play and some drive 2+ hours. The Officials are in charge of the game. And last, the Tournament rules are not in writing if there are any particular nuisances and in some tournaments the rules are layed out quite carefully , and they might be best be thought out. It puts visiting schools on alert as much as anything. And last, many schools are treating these events as more than meaningless and the pressure atmosphere of competition has been found very valuable and good for District competition which now is in the second half and determines seeds for the District Tournaments.

This atmosphere has to do with as much help to Coaches as players.