Tennessee DI All-Americans

[BobCorker]

Tennessee D1 All-Americans

With NCAAs concluding, I thought it might be fun to revisit the 7 TN natives who have made it on the podium. 7 AAs puts TN just below the country of Japan when it comes to NCAA All-Americans. The drought now extends to 15 years since TN had an AA.  TN high school wrestling is traveling more and getting decent results, but it is not translating to college. If UTC would have stayed DII, the guys who qualified this year and many others who are buried on rosters could make up a pretty good team DII team.  

Any thoughts one who might be the next TN AA?  My pick is Jarvis Little for App State. 

Bill Harlow-  St. Andrews School/Oklahoma State

1964- 2^nd

1965- 2^nd

1966- 1^st

Howard Langford- Cleveland/UTC

1992- 8^th

Phillip Simpson – MBA/West Point

2003- 3^rd

2004- 8^th

2005- 2^nd

Matt Keller- Bradley Central/Nebraska/UTC

2006- 8^th

2007- 4^th

Cody Cleveland- Tullahoma/McCallie/UTC

2008- 8^th

Jordan Leen – Baylor/Cornell

2007-8^th

2008- 1^st

2009- 3^rd

Nick Marable Christian Brothers/Missouri

2008- 3^rd

2009- 7^th

[oceansize42]

Tennessee is improving, no doubt, but so is everyone else and this is what gets overlooked.  I was really pulling for Palmer to  squeak it out but that didn't happen. Brayden, if you read this, I enjoyed watching you wrestle, well done. Chittum had a weird tournament. A win over Teemer, who took second, in the regular season but that didn't translate when it mattered.  The loss to the App State guy was the ugly one. He is too old for the well he is just a freshmen chatter. I do think he will AA, likely next year.

I've said it before and it was a really unpopular statement but I stand by the statement that most TN kids who enter D1, if wrestling is the priority, would be better served at the D2, D3, NAIA, or JUCO levels. There is no shame in that and I don't know why it was treated as if I said our kids stink, they don't. There is a list of really good wrestlers from TN over the last few years who didn't survive but one or two seasons within D1.  

I realize everyone wants to make a big deal about recruitment but I see signing as the easy part (in comparison), not the hard part.  The hard part is starting and winning, again, if wrestling really really is a priority. 

How many TN kids are even the starter on their team within D1? How many have a winning record?

Edited March 25 by oceansize42

[WrestlingGod]

1 hour ago, oceansize42 said:

How many TN kids are even the starter on their team within D1? How many have a winning record?

So "most Tennessee kids" shouldn't go D1 because there aren't many starters from TN on a D1 team? Or "most Tennessee kids" shouldn't go D1 because not a lot have winning records?

 

Its still an L take. It was then, and it is now. 

[oceansize42]

24 minutes ago, WrestlingGod said:

So "most Tennessee kids" shouldn't go D1 because there aren't many starters from TN on a D1 team? Or "most Tennessee kids" shouldn't go D1 because not a lot have winning records?

 Yes. I'm not sure how else you could interpret what I wrote. Is there another interpretation I'm missing?  The vast majority who head to D1 are not good enough. I'll take it a step further, parents and coaches are doing most of these a kids a disservice by directing them to D1 level schools if wrestling is a priority.  If wrestling is just an activity, then by all means.

Edited March 25 by oceansize42

[WrestlingGod]

18 minutes ago, oceansize42 said:

 Yes. I'm not sure how else you could interpret what I wrote. Is there another interpretation I'm missing?  The vast majority who head to D1 are not good enough. I'll take it a step further, parents and coaches are doing most of these a kids a disservice by directing them to D1 level schools if wrestling is a priority.  If wrestling is just an activity, then by all means.

Still an absolutely asinine take. The fact you continue to double down is baffling. 

 

So every one of the kids who signed with division one programs this year should retract them and go to a different division because there aren't a lot of current tn kids starting on div one teams, and of those that are there arent many winning records.

 

You heard it here, just go ahead and go somewhere else boys. 

 

 

Let me ask you, of those who did sign div 1 commitment letters this season, who do you think should go and who should just not even bother trying?

[oceansize42]

35 minutes ago, WrestlingGod said:

Still an absolutely asinine take. The fact you continue to double down is baffling. 

 

So every one of the kids who signed with division one programs this year should retract them and go to a different division because there aren't a lot of current tn kids starting on div one teams, and of those that are there arent many winning records.

 

You heard it here, just go ahead and go somewhere else boys. 

 

 

Let me ask you, of those who did sign div 1 commitment letters this season, who do you think should go and who should just not even bother trying?

I can't convince you.  You're hung up on D1 being the end all be all.  It isn't. The lower levels are very tough and very respectable.  It is no small achievement to even start on a lower level school.  Further, you keep saying stuff like "every one of the kids....".  You absolutely cannot read. You cannot read.  You cannot read. I keep saying the "vast majority" or "most".  Please, please, read. Don't be emotional. You're super emotional and this where coaches and parents cause problems. Less emotion, more logic. Past statistics matter.

All I can say is that there are private discussions amongst wrestling enthusiasts that occur year in and year out.  It is isn't terribly hard to predict who is not going to make it.  That list is long.  Then there are a couple who are borderline (Trae, Reiniche as examples. They emerged as starters).  Then there are the Chittums (super short list, right?). Are there exceptions from time to time? Yes, of course.  But not making it is ok, but the writing was on the wall to those who are observant.

Edited March 25 by oceansize42

[WrestlingGod]

44 minutes ago, oceansize42 said:

I can't convince you.  You're hung up on D1 being the end all be all.  It isn't. The lower levels are very tough and very respectable.  It is no small achievement to even start on a lower level school.  Further, you keep saying stuff like "every one of the kids....".  You absolutely cannot read. You cannot read.  You cannot read. I keep saying the "vast majority" or "most".  Please, please, read. Don't be emotional. You're super emotional and this where coaches and parents cause problems. Less emotion, more logic. Past statistics matter.

All I can say is that there are private discussions amongst wrestling enthusiasts that occur year in and year out.  It is isn't terribly hard to predict who is not going to make it.  That list is long.  Then there are a couple who are borderline (Trae, Reiniche as examples. They emerged as starters).  Then there are the Chittums (super short list, right?). Are there exceptions from time to time? Yes, of course.  But not making it is ok, but the writing was on the wall to those who are observant.

The entire issue is you saying they shouldn't even bother. How do you not see that? 

 

Maybe they do go and wrestle a year, then trasnfer, or flame out, maybe not. But why would anybody ever think telling kids, sorry you arent good enough to consider wrestling division 1 is a good idea? You know how we find these "exceptions"? By encouraging the kids to go to the BEST schoosl they can get into and try their hardest to succeed. 

 

Telling them sorry, not enough kids from TN wrestle D1 and not enough have winning records so you can't succeed either is stupid. Just stupid. 

[BobCorker]

I actually agree with oceansize42 for the most part. Every other state is still progressing and improving at a significant rate as well.  While TN might be closing the gap a bit, it comes down to a numbers game. 

There are only 30-40 college programs that are actually competitive. Each school has 4-6 years of recruits and kids are pigeonholed to one weight class.  

TN puts 3-4 in DI every year. PA puts 30.  If 25 of the 30 from PA never pan out, then they still have a good showing.  If all 4 kids from TN fail to make it, then it looks like a barren landscape.  

Signing with a D1 college is the easy part.  TN kids/parents act like they have achieved the pinnacle by signing DI. I suspect this is because most of the parents never wrestled DI themselves and they don't know anyone who did. The fact of the matter is that most kids who sign DI will never start.  The ones who start will probably have a hard time of ever making it to the tournament.  For some the opportunity to be on a good team or go to a good school like Stanford might be worth the risk of not ever having success.  

For many kids in TN and other states, they would have a much better experience if they went to Washington and Lee or Cumberland University. (Depending on academic aspirations).  Look at Sammy Shires as an example:  I would argue that he is having a much better experience of being a 2x AA in NAIA than some of our guys who are going off to be 3rd string at an ACC school.  Having more kids have success at the lower levels would keep more in the sport for a longer time.  This would translate to more of them returning home and entering the coaching ranks.  Our state would actually grow more over time if our best didn't flame out in 2 years at a big school.  There is a lack of education of the big picture landscape in TN. 

[oceansize42]

1 hour ago, WrestlingGod said:

The entire issue is you saying they shouldn't even bother. How do you not see that? 

 

Maybe they do go and wrestle a year, then trasnfer, or flame out, maybe not. But why would anybody ever think telling kids, sorry you arent good enough to consider wrestling division 1 is a good idea? You know how we find these "exceptions"? By encouraging the kids to go to the BEST schoosl they can get into and try their hardest to succeed. 

 

Telling them sorry, not enough kids from TN wrestle D1 and not enough have winning records so you can't succeed either is stupid. Just stupid. 

The "vast majority" shouldn't bother with D1 unless there is little emphasis on the wrestling part. I honestly can't agree with anything you wrote. I'd rather honestly evaluate their ability and set them up for possible success from the start, all the while pursuing a relevant degree from a quality school (of which there are plenty, even in the lower levels).  I'm not into the chase your dreams on the one in a thousand chance it happens.  

I'm really confused by your statements about winning. When a young man enters D1 wrestling the expectation is winning and winning a bunch. There is no other expectation.  That's it. Win, win, and then win some more.  If you don't win you don't start. If you're not starting now you're going to practice to get your arse kicked every single day by the young man who is starting or you're relegated to wrestling everyone but the starter as you have no chance.  You become a practice dummy. Not that the coach doesn't like you or your teammates don't like you, but ultimately that is what you become.  A cheerleader. I'd rather drop a level or two, start, win, and contribute in more meaningful ways. I'm pragmatic about this because for most it is the proper path.  Doesn't have to be liked, but it's true.

 

[oceansize42]

6 minutes ago, BobCorker said:

 

 Look at Sammy Shires as an example:  I would argue that he is having a much better experience of being a 2x AA in NAIA than some of our guys who are going off to be 3rd string at an ACC school.  

I couldn't agree more with this.  Sammy putting in the work AND getting the rewards. Great to see.

[WrestlingGod]

45 minutes ago, oceansize42 said:

The "vast majority" shouldn't bother with D1 unless there is little emphasis on the wrestling part. I honestly can't agree with anything you wrote. I'd rather honestly evaluate their ability and set them up for possible success from the start, all the while pursuing a relevant degree from a quality school (of which there are plenty, even in the lower levels).  I'm not into the chase your dreams on the one in a thousand chance it happens.  

I'm really confused by your statements about winning. When a young man enters D1 wrestling the expectation is winning and winning a bunch. There is no other expectation.  That's it. Win, win, and then win some more.  If you don't win you don't start. If you're not starting now you're going to practice to get your arse kicked every single day by the young man who is starting or you're relegated to wrestling everyone but the starter as you have no chance.  You become a practice dummy. Not that the coach doesn't like you or your teammates don't like you, but ultimately that is what you become.  A cheerleader. I'd rather drop a level or two, start, win, and contribute in more meaningful ways. I'm pragmatic about this because for most it is the proper path.  Doesn't have to be liked, but it's true.

 

Yeah, im not going to tell the kids i've coached not to chase their dreams because statically it probably wont work out. That's awful life advice. And no, im not "hung up" on d1 being the end all be all, my oldest child's godfather was a d2 national champ and coahces at Newberry. I've sent kids his way plenty of times. But man, i just cannot grasp the idea of telling kids not to follow their dreams or go try and get a spot on the best school they're capable of getting into becuase they may not make it. That's just pitiful 

 

Also, to add on, we've got more kids now in this moment that are capable of making an impact on a d1 roster than we've ever had before (chittum, the uhorchucks, jakobs, desselle, hilton, flynn etc)

Edited March 25 by WrestlingGod

[oceansize42]

24 minutes ago, WrestlingGod said:

Yeah, im not going to tell the kids i've coached not to chase their dreams because statically it probably wont work out. That's awful life advice. And no, im not "hung up" on d1 being the end all be all, my oldest child's godfather was a d2 national champ and coahces at Newberry. I've sent kids his way plenty of times. But man, i just cannot grasp the idea of telling kids not to follow their dreams or go try and get a spot on the best school they're capable of getting into becuase they may not make it. That's just pitiful 

 

Also, to add on, we've got more kids now in this moment that are capable of making an impact on a d1 roster than we've ever had before (chittum, the uhorchucks, jakobs, desselle, hilton, flynn etc)

You're thinking about how you speak to kids and not how someone with a modicum of common sense speaks to kids. 

If I'm talking to a young man who clearly doesn't belong at the D1 level I'm not going to say "well you stink and shouldn't go". I'm not going to quote statistics or draw comparisons to other wrestlers. I'm going to sit them down and have a level headed honest conversation, which I believe most kids and young adults want. I'm going to tell them that if they choose D1, their current abilities do not align with that choice.  I'm going to tell them the road will be extraordinarily difficult (I think D1 wrestling is the hardest collegiate sport by a mile) and the amount of work required to achieve even a modicum of success will be costly in terms of time and physical well being.  However, if that is your choice and you understand what is required then shoot for the stars (because that is what they are doing, I'm not telling them this part).   I would then point out the advantages to wrestling at a lower level.  

You're acting as if everyone thinks and speaks at the level you do.   Like in wrestling there are levels, in thought, observation, and the spoken word.  

Edited March 25 by oceansize42