Any Opinions?

[Hoya]

Thanks for the reply Chxian.

 

In fairness, I'd say you're correct that I lean toward club ball as the best way to develop soccer players. High school has other, extremely valid, goals one of which Toro points out very well - building strong lasting ties to schoolmates. As a high school coach I know the importance of playing any sport for your school and I do not advocate choosing club over HS. I am suggesting that players can do both for a limited period of time (i.e. 10 -14 days in the Spring for boys and Fall for girls) to accomplish the goal I have identified. I think they can reasonably have both and I don't think they should be required to choose one over the other as TSSAA now requires.

 

I can't identify a player who lost a DI chance because they weren't at a tournament but college coaches at all levels have told me it happens. I have, however, no way to know for sure. Now, can you name for me any player without extensive club experience who has received a scholarship to play college soccer? I can't think of anyone in my area within the last 5 or so years. Whether it's good or not, club ball is the ticket to college level soccer, not high school. My HS has had 5 All-State players in the last 3 years (all of whom were recruited to play college ball) and I can count the college coaches who watched their HS games on my fingers. Impact '86, a team of HS juniors, had over 40 college coaching contacts at just one tournament this fall. I'm sure the same is true for teams in Nashville, Chattanooga and Memphis. It's just the way the system works. I don't know if its right or wrong, I'm just describing it and trying to maximize opportunities for players.

 

With respect to good scholastic programs being competitive with good club teams - you're right, we can never know for sure, but I'd put my money on "no way". Even Bearden's recent Div I/AAA Championship teams, with all of its DI club players, never looked anywhere near as smooth or competitive as its club parts - SMSC Select '83, SMSC Arsenal '84, SMSC Select '85 or Diadora Impact '86. Bearden's coach Eric Turner does one of the best jobs coaching HS of anyone in the State, but it's simply different and considerably less competitive. More fun, maybe more important for growing up, but no where near the playing equal of club ball.

 

Anyway, I'm not advocating legislating that kids have to choose. TSSAA already does that. USYSA and TSSA don't restrict players who play high school - TSSAA restricts the players. I'm suggesting a compromise. I'd also like to see more club coaches being brought into the high school experience, both for the good of the players and to remind the club coaches that high school ball has its own very valid and important reasons for being.

 

Finally, I agree with your comments on Toro.

[chxian]

Hoya75,

 

Reading your background you'd probably be surprised how close our soccer experiences resemble one another. There is no question that club soccer is the better ultimate developer of soccer talent. Again, I'll point to the 9 months vs. 3 months scenario, better standards (i.e. licenses and diplomas) for coaches, and game in game out better competition. I'm still not persuaded that the 2-3 week period is necessary and I'll let my prior post speak to reasons why.

 

The anonymity this format offers is one reason I choose to communicate here. With that said, I can name 2 players from last year and 1 from this year that are on scholarship and never played for any D1 club or were ever involved in ODP programs. Terrific athletes and skill at their position is why college coaches are attracted to them and they had club and high school coaches that networked on their behalf.

 

I would appreciate a further explanation on your comment that "USYSA and TSSA doesn't restrict players who play high school - TSSAA restricts the players". Again, TSSA and other organizations like that exist only for the promotion of their sport whereas TSSAA exists for the promotion of all high school sports (except cheer which is a totally different subject!).

 

Bottom line is the two models, interscholastic and club, should be complementary to one another. Clubs that have tried to introduce the Elite concept (year round soccer, no high school permitted) have, IMO, not positioned their sport well for the future as the high school experience is very "American". High schools that have put the sport on the shelve in terms of committing to obtaining quality coaches (non-faculty coaches are permitted by TSSAA) have done a disservice to their players as well and are also to blame.

 

Keep up the good work for your team. You obviously have a passion for the kids and the sport which automatically puts you in the top tier for soccer coaches IMO.

[trackman]

Very interesting and readable thread. Thanks Chxian and hoya for information and opinions. And to Toro, it looks like you've got a pretty good perspective on the whole thing: high school athletics in general and soccer in particular. Your h s coach sounds like he/she has his/her act together. I think the older you get, the more you'll appreciate that.

[Guest play]

Wow, I really appreciate everyone's perspective on this topic.

 

I've talked with coaches at all collegiate levels. The

key is exposure for several years U14 at the major tournaments, showcases, Regional Camps, etc. The more

exposure, the better the opportunity...NAIA, D I, II, III.

 

We need the compromise soon, otherwise we will see kids moving to play club vs school, especially some of the gifted Freshmen that could be starters in high school...

if they have a coach that bases their line-up on ability

vs their year in school.

 

[trackman]

I think the idea that freshmen (talented or otherwise) will opt for club is a bit pessimistic. I doubt very few athletes would pass up being a star (if they're so good they're on ODP, etc) on a high school team. Now before somebody blazes me with examples, I'm sure it's happened.

As someone said, high school athletics and club soccer are alike and different. Both stress different perspectives. I was at an official's clinic years ago and the instructor said, "FIFA laws protect the game. NHSF rules protect the athlete." I get really apprehensive when people talk about the "good of the game." That sounds like the same parent who calls the coach and says, "I've never made a call like this before..."

[cw160]

Thanks for your perspective Trackman. Some of the people worried about the good of soccer seem to be using the same thinking as the ones debating the split of TSSAA. They talk about what's best for wrestling, track, of whatever and not what's best for the athletes.

 

Who made soccer more important that kids? I'll bet soccer would get better soccer players if we had programs like AJAX Amsterdam or Real Madrid. We definitely would get better training then. If the idea is to provide the best experience, then why not go first class?

 

This whole thing is crazy. Leave high school sports alone.

[chxian]

You cw and trackman are right on...in my opinion the biggest reason soccer hasn't latched on in the U.S. has more to do with the hypocrisy that abounds in certain soccer-specific organizations when they talk about the need for player development but refuse to acknowledge the role high schools can play in soccer development similar to other sports. Because of greed, they want a monopoly on playing time and they need to perpetuate the existence of their organization so consequently high school soccer is viewed as their competition. There will be those that deny this but until their is some reaching out to the interscholastic community I'll stay put on this stance.

 

TSSAA has many flaws but no one can deny they have given this sport an opportunity to thrive by permitting coaches to come in from the outside. They recognize that there are not enough educators who also happen to understand the sport and can coach. For all those posters on this thread, the athletic directors of each high school should be challenged to find the best resource internally or externally to help teach their student athletes the game. If the AD's are not willing to do this then they must shoulder some of the blame and responsibility for not helping their kids get better and making high school soccer a true partner with club organizations.

 

This is not about 2-3 weeks of compromise, this is about a real paradigm shift needed by US Soccer and high school associations to promote the game at the high school level. How many inter-city high school soccer programs are there in Tennessee? Very few because again, to play the club route and learn the game you must have money and time to travel. There are some fine organizations that outreach to communities to promote the game but because it is more recreational in nature, no real talent (even to compete at the HS level) emerges. I'm supporting a platform that suggests until high school soccer is respected by the clubs - - meaning clubs recognize there is value in high school soccer experiences - - and staffed properly by the school administrators, it will always be the top youth sport for participation and the lowest in terms of professional franchise stability and fan attendance.

[Guest copamundial]

Hoya - thanks for not dumping on me cause I disagree with you, but think about what you're saying. In the spring we have 2 months, usually about 8 weeks in our season. Knock out spring break - 7 weeks. Clubs already have the other 10 months. If it can't be done in 10 months, why do clubs need 10-14 more days in the spring? For college coaches?

 

I've got friends whose club coaches were after them last year and they were still in the high school tournament. And then they started club without a break because the state club tournament was, etc. Then there are workouts all summer with travel and tournaments. Not to mention fall. Then indoor from December to March.

 

My friends who play h s basketball are expected to start AAU ball the next week. Then they go to tournaments and stuff during the summer. They have to quit baseball because everybody tells them they'll fall behind and their basketball coaches won't let them play.

 

Maybe this is selfish, but I really don't care how many guys get division one scholarships. That's not why MOST of us play high school sports. And think about how coaches would work out this 10-14 days. Most school and club coaches don't get along anyway, for whatever reason. What makes anybody think this would make it better.

Would TSSAA decide when the 10-14 days would be taken? What about teams that travel a lot: Houston, Farragut, Father Ryan, etc? And they usually have good players on those teams.

 

I have a suggestion for college coaches. They should get off their butts and do some scouting and recruiting in the spring. You can't tell me that a college coach would not come to Tennessee if he had a good prospect that he had a chance at. I'm sorry, but it looks like a somebody wants to make changes to the high school season and inconvenience the majority of high school programs for the benefit of a very, very, very small number of division one prospects.

[Guest play]

All good points folks, but....... how do you explain this

to the players that want a chance to showcase their ability

along with their rival teams from other states and cannot

because of the TSSAA rules.....it is a handicap of sorts.

 

Most other states recognize the importance to these athletes and allow it.

 

High School AD's do need to recognize that the key difference is the quality of training and coaching.....

not in every situation, but in most.

 

The compromise can work, it's already started in TN with

ODP and the Super Y League Championships being recognized

as an ODP event, thus permitting players to participate in

season. My fear is that it will happen one way or the other, however as long as TSSAA "tables" the topic....the

movement of 3rd party soccer organizations will continue to

make progress and will not be as considerate as if the TSSAA would make some effort now to accomodate the players

that want to participate in the "elite" leagues and or tournaments. These kids have a right to do both.

 

The other side of the coin, why is TN behind the eight ball?

Would this be an issue if the quality of coaching/training were better in High Schools?

 

First, TN is not that different from any other state, except

for the number of quality players and athletes coming from the same geographic area. Although as soccer programs in

Mid TN continue to become stronger, the more players you have that want to compete an the "elite" level, thus the

conflict. So, this would still be an issue regardless of

the quality of coaching in HS.......HS coaching is not the

issue, except that they need to understand that in order to

have the "special players" on their team, they need to understand that these "special players" should be allowed

to compete at the highest level possible........although

as someone noted, it's only a 3 month HS season..........

 

Give the kids the flexibility to participate, it may just

be the showcase or tournament that they catch the attention

necessary to help them.

[Guest play]

This is one of the up and coming alternatives to

"scholastic soccer". They even state such.

 

http://www.superyleague.com/scripts/runisa...splay+E+47456+A

[chxian]

Play,

 

At first glance, I assumed your intentions were noble in starting this thread. From your latest posts it is clear you share a strong anti high school bias with Hoya. Maybe you could start your own board on the USSF site on the virtues of year round club soccer for players and describe in detail how evil state associations are mortgaging the rosy future of American soccer and its players because their rules prohibit independent play 10 days out of the year. You could even have a special section devoted solely to those players that were seen at just those tournaments, received a scholarship as a result, along with their testimony that it was all because they saw the light and realized that developing a sense of community at their high school was not that important after all.

 

 

You talk about compromise. Any definition of compromise will include the word MUTUAL at its core. Here's a suggestion - why not have the tournament organizers change the dates of their tournaments and leagues change the dates of their season..they have 12 months to work with after all? Bottom line is USSF wants to monopolize the soccer landscape and IMO the politics, greed and power will set US soccer, its players and fans back. Trust me, you think the media will tout this great sport with no interscholastic structure in place? That model works just fine in individual sports like tennis and golf but not in team sports like soccer and baseball where player parity is very close.

 

My final comment is do you really want TSSAA to drop soccer as a sanctioned sport and put it into the realm of sports like hockey and lacrosse? That is what will happen if the TSSAA does not "accomodate" third party organizations. I anxiously await your thoughtful rebuttal.

[Guest play]

chxian, my intent was and is just as you described, noble...

 

I'm for a compromise that will take the pressure off of these kids and coaches. I am for HS athletics, it is important to the "school society" element of healthy

development.

 

I am not for HS coaches (or an organization) that are turf sensitive at the expense of these kids......that forget that these kids are working 8 to 9 months out of the year....etc, etc.

 

It's not difficult to handle, the dates of events are out

there well in advance.

 

I'm suggesting compromise. Cause this will eventually force

an unneccesary choice for the better players sooner than later.

 

How many HS coaches are willing to lose 3 or 4 key players or more because of it?