The MBA You Know

[WarriorFan]

nah, just cut off it's leg.

[BDURHAM]

Dingo,

 

Have you been drinking your master's Foster? You are all over the place and map regarding education, but you have yet to state any facts.

 

Start with the secondary institutions. Every school has scandals, and if you only get your information from the papers, you don't know the whole story on every school. You might be surprised at some of the things that have gone on at MBA, McCallie, Baylor and Vanderbilt. And scandals don't necessarily affect education. You have to do better than sling some mud at some schools to make your point.

 

You wrote:

Check your arrogance level against the facts of life. History. Geographical location. Population density. Semitic reality. Come on, now, are you getting a clue?

 

No, I don't have a clue. What are you talking about? I hope I am mistaken in my conjectures. Furthermore, history is on my side regarding the northeast.

 

It is my hope that you are making some type of joke out of this debate. I doubt anyone can produce convincing evidence that Andover and Exeter are vastly superior to MBA. One the other hand, if you think you can dismiss the number of Noble Prize winners who have taught at Harvard and the independent studies which clearly put Harvard at number one, you must believe someone is in the grassy knoll controlling the Harvard propaganda.

[BDURHAM]

Dingo,

 

Here are some facts about Andover, courtesy of the technological miracle of their website:

 

Faculty:

Men Women Total

Full-time 96 67 163

Part-time 20 39 59

Total 116 106 222

 

 

Highest degree:

Ph.D. - 39

Master's - 127

Bachelor's - 55

No degree - 2

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Class distribution of students:

Grade 12 - 310

Grade 11 - 282

Grade 10 - 278

Grade 9 - 209

 

Average class size: 13

Student/teacher ratio: 6 to 1

 

Student demographics

States and territories represented: 42

International students: 84 from 28 countries

Students of color: 30% (Asian/Asian-American, 17%; Black, 8%; Hispanic/Latino, 5%)

 

Admission statistics:

Preliminary applications - 2,750

Completed applications - 2,259

Admitted - 476

Matriculated - 342

48% from public schools

52% from private, parochial, foreign or home schools

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

College matriculations:

The Class of '02 matriculated at 98 colleges and universities, including:

Cornell - 17

Yale - 17

Georgetown - 16

Harvard - 11

Chicago - 10

Princeton - 9

Brown - 8

Carnegie Mellon - 8

Columbia - 8

Dartmouth - 8

University of Pennsylvania - 8

 

Class of '02 SAT scores (mean) - 672 verbal; 686 mathematics

 

College matriculation 1998-2002

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Athletic complex:

Facilities for 30 sports include 2 hockey rinks, 2 swimming pools, 8 squash courts, 2 basketball courts, 2 dance studios, fitness center and wrestling room, 2 fully staffed training rooms; outside track, 18 playing fields, 18 tennis courts, nearby crew boathouse; indoor facilities for track, tennis and team practice.

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off-campus Programs:

Exchanges with China, Japan, Russia; School Year Abroad in France, Spain, China; terms abroad in Italy, Germany, Mexico, France, Spain, Ivory Coast and China; Washington Internships; Mountain School (Vermont) Program; Maine Coast Semester; Urban Studies Institute, Lawrence, Mass.; Community Service Programs in Andover and surrounding towns.

 

 

 

 

Good luck on finding a private or public school in Tennessee that can equal these numbers.

[Edited by StanTrott on 2-10-03 8:12A]

 

[cw160]

Good luck on finding a public or private with the FINANCES of the parents of those matriculating at the schools listed. Money matters. How many parents from Raleigh-Egypt or Oneida have the money to send their kids to U of Chicago?

 

How many kids at Andover are on free or reduced lunch? If you think we're not an economically segregated country, you're living in a dream world.

[Guest Dingo]

StanTrott,

 

Actually, I HAVE been tasting my master's Foster (hiccup!), but I find it quite lacking in appeal. Much more to my taste is my (former) enemy's smooth, 101 Russian white liquor! Ah! Much more appealing to the stomach and palate!

 

Stan, I do not have the stomach for this debate. I can tell it will take us so far a field from the concerns of our state that I wonder why we should bother. First, you pooh-pooh what you call "scandals." Dang, do I have to start from the beginning? Let's see, that would take at least 2 weeks before those on this board who are not already familiar with the facts could see that I am right.

 

Second, bring on the challenges about the Tennessee schools you mention. What? Only innuendo? No finalized court cases to prove your point? No internet-distributed films that leave no doubt? No multi-million dollar settlements already on the books?

 

The quote from my post you (intentionally?) misunderstand refers to the reality of pertinent facts. Alas, as I said, I lack the stomach for this debate.

 

Let me just say this: find me one kid from Harvard who should not have expected to succeed in exorbitant fashion given his/her advantages by birth and yet did so. My bet is that kid, if you can find him/her, comes from outside the usual clientele that matriculates to that emasculated school. Still, if you can list that prodigy, I propose that I can list at least 5 from Vandy, Duke, Ga. Tech, Stanford, and even UT, UGA, UF, etc. In addition, I can find another 5 Harvard graduates from outside the school's usual area of influence who are achieving less than the top 25% of any 4-year state school in Tennessee; I will actually let you choose the school!

 

Where you went to school only opens doors. The proof of your educational superiority lies not in what school graduated you, but what you do with the knowledge that graduation gave you.

 

To quote Stan Lee: "'Nuff said!'"

 

Dingo

[BDURHAM]

Dingo,

 

I am still trying to understand what your facts are, but I keep coming to the same conclusion: your belly fake is your bread and butter. While I struggle to comprehend your prose, there are simply too many esoteric references -- they have all gone over my naive head.

 

You asked for facts, and I simply tried to supply them. Someone, I believe it was rollredroll, sought to discuss a comparision between MBA and Andover or Exeter. You joined in with personal assaults. Why? I don't know.

 

This was perhaps your weakest belly fake in your argument:

 

Let me just say this: find me one kid from Harvard who should not have expected to succeed in exorbitant fashion given his/her advantages by birth and yet did so.

 

For the record, I have some names for you. I personally know at least one person who went to Harvard on financial aid. And this person chose to work for the homeless and a legal aid organization.

 

This debate was way off the Tennessee topic, and I am glad to end it.

[Guest Dingo]

StanTrott,

 

Even as you agree to conclude this meaningless debate, you open questions that preclude that possibility from occurring in a fair manner. To wit, you say goodbye to the discussion while leaving questions open about my honor and purpose.

 

I will ignore your references to the "belly fake" I so love to employ and simply say if my prose leaves you confused that referent in your post renders me incapable of even understanding what the heck you are saying or implying. OK?

 

Back to what (I think) I do understand, you say: "Someone, I believe it was rollredroll, sought to discuss a comparision (sic) between MBA and Andover or Exeter. You joined in with personal assaults. Why? I don't know." How can I "join in" with personal assaults when I don't know anybody on these boards? I don't have a clue what you are talking about. Do I think MBA can compare to Andover and Exeter on a fair-comparison basis? Yes. If those two schools were forced to accept students from the same geographic/socio-economic restrictions placed on MBA, I would say that MBA would blow their ###### out of the water. Plus, your reluctance to place drugs and sex CONFICTIONS and FINAL settlements on the table, except in the waffle-handed pursuance of rumors and allegations, makes your post even more suspect. I will even accept as a beginning point the local media's heyday about the "date-rape" drugs.

 

"I have some names . . ." "I personally know of ONE (my emphasis) . . ." Does anyone besides me see an incongruency here?

 

My position is this: if the illustrious list of names you propose to enter as proof of the superiority of N/E liberal arts education had enrolled at Vandy, or GA Tech, or wherever, then your list would diminish and those schools would have increased in equal measure. With regard to secondary education, MBA, McCallie (that hurts me), Baylor, MUS, etc., AND Lipscomb, Ezell, CBS, CCS, etc., would have succeeded as well or better than Andover or Exeter with the same kids. And public schools would have fared only a bit less successfully, since the parents of those kids value education, like mine.

 

Finally, a really odd caveat that I just began today to explore. You are going to hate this. Seems like start-up industries from the last 15 years that are breaking in to the Fortune 500 are headed by graduates from schools that fall outside the parameters you seem to think are the only ones capable of saying, "Hey, I'm better than you, because I was graduated from . . ."

 

Having said all this, my recent exuberance in the last few days is directly attributable to an MBA graduate. My LLC is now free and clear to go forward into the future, and I am profoundly happy to have in my employ a Big Red supporter who defended me in a Clinton-appointed federal court against what I thought were insurmountable odds. He prevailed. I add this rather emotional semi-postscript to bolster the point I have made all along: I do not, have not, and never will disparage the achievements of any school. I did, have, and always will challenge those who think they are superior to others because of where they were educated.

 

Again, and at last, it is what you do with what you have learned that matters. Where you learned it doesn't mean a darn thing.

 

Dingo

[Edited by Dingo on 2-12-03 12:14A]

 

[BDURHAM]

Dingo,

 

Keep huffing and puffing, and maybe you will blow my house down! But you forgot one thing: the facts.

 

Congratulations on your court victory, but what does that have to do with the debate? You said you didn't understand my "belly-fake" reference? The following is exhibit A:

 

Dingo Wrote:

Having said all this, my recent exuberance in the last few days is directly attributable to an MBA graduate. My LLC is now free and clear to go forward into the future, and I am profoundly happy to have in my employ a Big Red supporter who defended me in a Clinton-appointed federal court against what I thought were insurmountable odds.

 

Does MBA now have a law school? I am pleased than someone who attended MBA has helped you, but one MBA graduate does not make your case. Please look back to the fact sheet I supplied regarding Andover. There was a list of teachers with Phd.s. There was another list of colleges -- which graduates from Andover attended. You may not agree with the facts, but they are facts. Have you supplied any factual date to support your side of the debate?

 

You best argument is to state that "if" Vanderbilt students attended Harvard they would have similar results. If I had been on an Apollo spaceship, I might have stepped on the moon.

 

If McCallie had MBA's football players, they would have won the state title, right? If the Oakland Raiders had the Tampa Bay players, they would have won the Super Bowl, right?

 

Nice try Dingo, but next time you want to tell me how MBA can blow Andover out of the water, please include some facts in your argument.

 

Perhaps a more meaningful debate would be to center on what constitutes success. You keep referring to CEOs of companies or LLCs as a true test of success.

 

Is someone who owns or runs a company more successful than someone who works with the poor? And is someone who uses inappropriate language on a high school message board using his education to its fullest?

[Edited by StanTrott on 2-12-03 7:22A]

 

[bigred11]

I'll help out dingo:

 

Total students: 660

Junior School: approximately 185 students in grades 7-8

High School: approximately 475 student sin grades 9-12

57 local schools represented

Minority Students: 7%

(remember, MBA only has 475 high school pupils as opposed to Andover's 1079)

 

64 full-time and 15 part-time faculty, 57 men and 22 women

70% of teaching faculty have graduate degrees including 13 doctorates

Average teaching experience: 18 years

Average number of years at MBA: 11 years

 

Student-teacher ratio: 8 : 1

Average class size: 13

 

The class of 2002 matriculated to 54 colleges and universities in 28 states, plus DC and Scotland.

others included: Princeton, Penn., Navy, MIT, Duke, UNC, Army, Vandy, Yale, Dartmouth, Columbia and Cornell.

 

From 102 men, 44 (43%) were national merit scholars.

 

The class of 2002 middle 50% SAT scores were 650 verbal and 650 math.

 

Since 1998, 585 MBA students have taken 1231 AP exams, and 88% have scored a 3 or higher.

 

5 Athletic Fields, 10 Tennis Courts, 2 Gymnasiums, Weight Room, Wrestling Room, 8-lane Track

 

In 2001-2002, the MBA Debate Team claimed a Freshman National Championship and a top-twenty national ranking in Varsity Policy Debate. Four MBA students represented Tennessee at the National Speech and Debate Tournament in Charlotte, North Carolina

 

MBA students study at Eton and Winchester Colleges in England, Michaelhouse and Kearnsey Schools in South Africa, and Southport School in Australia. Teachers also spend time teaching at these institutions during the summer term. Students also participate with study programs in France, England, Ireland, Poland, Switzerland, Argentina, Chile. In the past MBA has participated in exghanges with schools in Germany and Spain. And of course the Gentleman of MBA continually aid the community through service projects.

 

I'm glad that you wished me luck to find a school in Tennessee that has the kind of numbers that Andover has. It was hard.

[Edited by bigred11 on 2-12-03 5:45P]

 

[Guest Dingo]

StanTrott,

 

In light of our past interchange of ideas, I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, especially since I now know that you are a graduate of such a fine institution of learning. I must conclude that you are being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to poke fun at my abstract reflectionism; you are joking with me because I deflect my criticism with an attempt at an intellectual honesty. Since my own intellect is severely limited, I always fall short, so you are stabbing at my shortcoming in a kind way. Thank you for being so kind.

 

Since others here may not understand your kind condensation to my inability to reach the great heights to which you have ascended because of you educational background, I will answer your objections as if they were real instantiations of disgust from one so far superior to the average Tennessean that normal parameters of measurement lose their meaning.

 

First, in regard to your "belly-fake" reference, will you forgive me if I tell you I don't even know what a "belly-fake" is? That was my point. Is this when John Wayne wears a girdle in his last few movies to hide the fact that it is really hard to be 70 and have the belly of a kid who is 13? Is it Madonna having a lipo-suction operation to remove that little, bitty piece of fatty tissue from her abdomen? What do you mean by "belly-fake?" Personally, my belly is far from flat, and if you can me how to fake that, I would be in your debt forever.

 

Second, what in the heck are you talking about with the reference to MBA having a law school? Did I somehow imply that? Did anybody on this thread, besides you, infer that? My point was that, though I have called MBA graduates into question when they claim their education makes them superior to such idiots as I, I have not, do not, and will not question the fine education MBA offers. My dear friend, my opinion that MBA offers a fine education does not in the least bit stand on the incredibly gifted attorney who defended me in court; quite the contrary, and much to your consternation, the quality education it offers stands on its own merits without whatever paltry endorsements I might offer.

 

With regard to your "sheet" of Andover (excuse the fragment). Forget the doctorates; that is fine and dandy, but I think we can agree in regard to substance, the matriculation data is more significant. If you find that evasive, I will come back to it later. Focusing on matriculation, can you find a single school on your list that MBA (for the sake of this argument, please, all graduates from other schools please forgive me) students did not attend? I wait with (not) arrested breath as you search in vain.

 

Your Apollo comparison is laughable. This is simply true because REAL Vandy graduates do, actually, compare well with Harvard, Yale, etc., graduates by any measure you wish to introduce. My point was simply that if they (Vandy and the other schools I listed) were given access to the same well, their water would taste just as sweet.

 

Finally, your "measure of success" attack is both unfair and beneath contempt. I want to respond in kind, but this kind of argument I generally find contemptible. I wish only to refer you to studies you must know of, given your background, that compare the altruistic longevity of the N/E schools compared to those of the South and the rest of the country. Ouch! Your patronizing tirade seems to fall short, doesn't it? Seems your buddies stay for 5 years, while the South keeps giving over (heck, I must be making this up, do you want to challenge me?) a lifetime????

 

In short, this stupid, inept, Australian dog will continue to challenge any who think they are automatically superior to others because of where they were educated. I'm fine with your arrogance until you begin to take opportunities away from good, honest kids who deserve a chance to succeed. Once and for all, I have yet to find the venue that provides the chance to test your mettle against any and all better than sports. I thought, dear friend, you agreed with me. And again, for any who don't yet know, I believe the DII split to be the worst thing that has happened to kids on both sides of the divide.

 

In short, knowing you are kidding but pretending otherwise, I find your criticism of the educational opportunities in the South in general, and Tennessee in particular, to be totally without merit. Forget my measure(s) of success; bring on yours. We will meet you face-to-face and square to square. We will take our own born-here sons and pretend your nationally acquired body of children belong, somehow, to your region and still acquit ourselves in outstanding fashion. That is your odyssey; you challenge me to facts, I challenge you to provide me what facts will satisfy you. I predict, forgive me, that others will take up my cause and you will have little need of my input.

 

Dingo

[Guest Dingo]

bigred11,

 

Dang. Read my last paragraph to StanTrott. Am I a prophet or what?

 

Thank you.

 

Dingo

[BDURHAM]

Dingo,

 

This is a "layup":

 

Harvard

 

Focusing on matriculation, can you find a single school on your list that MBA (for the sake of this argument, please, all graduates from other schools please forgive me) students did not attend?