Contraversial calls in the state tournament

[Asylamer]

I just thought it would be interesting to see what everybody's opinion is on some contraversial calls in the state tournament. One I thought was pretty bad was Brian Guthrey and Allen Patterson's semi-final match in '94, where Guthrey got hit for stalling with 3sec. left and lost.

[Edited by Asylamer on 3-11-03 12:02A]

[reftn]

If you are going to do this (discuss controversy)..and it relates to stalling...

 

stalling is a call of the moment...not a cumulative thought process throughout the match...

 

you call stalling when it happens....even if a wrestler has "out shot" his opponent 20-1, or his ahead 14-0. It happens with five seconds or five minutes left in the match.

 

Keep it clean.

 

reftn

[delaWarr]

reftn, Your call of the ideal looks good on paper, but the great stalling-call refs throughout Tennessee history, who called/call stalling during the first 15 seconds of the match the same as they did/do during the last 15 seconds of the match, can be counted on two hands, maybe without using all of the fingers on the second hand.

[bearlock]

whatever....Guthrie stalled the whole match!!! He was backing up when he got hit for stalling. What about Jake Parrish getting ripped in their 152 semi finals in 97'? He had Goatee in a spladle...He received no pin, He received no back points...But I dont blame the ref although, The ref didnt even look for shoulders touching the mat.

[reftn]

On paper?!...You printed this out?!...Can I now say I have been published?...smiles....

 

Everyone, from the ticket taker, to the fan in the stands, the scorekeeper, the COACHES in the corners, have there opins regarding this call.

 

Therefore, the most subjective call in our sport.

 

The book only says wrestling aggressively to secure a fall. So a technician, scoring at will, earning nearfall and letting his opponent go isnt attempting to secure a fall. By the book, this is stalling?

 

I do stand by my statement, stalling is a call in the moment.

 

I feel like consistency is more the issue. If it is stalling now it was stalling then. Whether 20 seconds into the match or 20 seconds left.

 

Maybe we could get the officials to do a FANS clinic in late October regarding this. Now theres a scary thought!

 

The freestyle clinic done at Brentwood was really good. There are mats open every day at different schools for those wanting to participate.

 

reftn

[Edited by reftn on 3-1-03 9:33P]

 

[Guest brando0275]

During the match with Allen Patterson Guthrie stayed in that squared stance the whole match. He was waiting to score with a sit around. There were several stalemates where Allen shot and guthrie would lock in the crotch and hang on. That call was way overdue.

[Asylamer]

Everybody has his own opinion, but I just don't like stalling calls made in the last 3-5 seconds of a match, unless the stalling is just flagrant, which I don't think it was in that match. If a stalling call is going to be made, it needs to be made in a reasonable amount of time, not with 3 tics on the clock. If he was stalling and it wasn't called with 15 or 20 seconds left on the clock, it doesn't need to be called with 3 seconds left on the clock, because at that point, the ref takes the match out of the kid's hands.

[Edited by Asylamer on 3-11-03 12:05A]

[bearlock]

The ref didnt take the match out of anybody's hands. Guthrie locked in the crotch all match long...He was backing up with three seconds left and got hit for stalling!!!!! Yes stalling in that match was flagrant. If you had watched Guthrie his whole career you would see that is how he wrestled, he rarely moved forward. He almost always waited for the other guy to do something. I agree that a good defense is a part of wrestling but you have to have offense too! Guthrie showed me no offense that match..or most of his career....Whether it is the last three seconds or fifteen seconds, it is a part of the match... Until the last whistle blows, the match is not over. If you pin somebody with three seconds left, Is it still a pin or did the ref blow a call? It is still a pin!!! Sorry aslaymer

[dragonwrestler]

a crotch lock isnt stalling and a pin is a lot less of a judgement call than stalling.

[bearlock]

I guess locking in the crotch can be stalling when that is the only thing you know how to do. I never said it was stalling anyway. That is good defense but it is far from offensive...hmm, maybe that is why he got called for stalling. Maybe if he was trying to get around him and score points but he wasnt. And when you lock like that as many times as he did it is as obvious as a pin would be. Did anyone else see that match?

[Asylamer]

Bearlock, If I read you right, you are saying that wrestler A was stalling other than just leading up to the last three seconds...throughout the match even...flagrant. If you are correct in your assessment of his stalling, then you err in your assessment of the referee's call. If he was stalling earlier in the match, then it should have been called at the first point that it was evident. If the outcome of the match is determined by the penalty call which could have been called earlier, then it would appear that the referee's call, with almost certainty, did take the match at that point out of the hands of the wrestler. Three secends left in a match is a mighty short time to score a winning takedown.

[Edited by Asylamer on 3-3-03 2:05A]

[luchador]

Stalling can also be construed as a repeated action that leads to a stalemate situation. Locking the crotch with no attempt to score is stalling. He was locking in the crotch to avoid not getting taken down. He wasn't working to improve or score. It was called at three seconds left in the match, but he was stalling leading up to that point. It was what occurred the previous 10 second or so that leads up to that call. There is not time limit or set duration of time needed to call stalling. A stall call can be made when the official feels a wrestler is stalling, especially to gain an advantage in the match. Leading by 1 late in the match is a prime time to look for stalling. The winning wrestler is usually trying to burn clock.

Here is one question for all of you naysayers. Referees are accused of affecting the outcome of the match with such calls. How about the referees that affect the outcome of a match by not making such calls.

It maybe before some of you can remeber, but in the 1992 finals, in the 3rd period Nikazy of Hendersonville was hitting duck unders and taking Fouts of Baylor down at will. He would have tied the match with 1 more takedown. He tried to cut Fouts, but Fouts held on to a two on one wrist and would not let go. He held on for 30 seconds. Nikazy was out front, pushing on Fouts' head with the free hand, and literally jerking his own shoulder out of socket to get his arm free to give away the escape. Fouts never got the escape so Nikazy couldn't take him down again to tie up the match and lost by one. The referee should have called stalling but didn't and fouts won the state that year. Not making the call can also affect the outcome.

[Edited by luchador on 3-3-03 3:16A]