ATTENTION TEACHERS!

[WesTNFootball]

You may some great points, but some would not fly. There was a school of the east coast (don't remember which) that taught only the skills needed for the job. By this I mean they did not teach Lit or Music, example, to future plumers. They only taught skills needed for the job. The students were very knowledgeable in their line of work, but stupid in society. That did not work out. This is why we have to take all classes. Also it's hard to identify students coming out of primary school. A child may be living with an abusive parent during K-3 and have failing grades, leaves the parent in 4th grade and gets the highest grades possible. Although I do agree that this would be ideal to do, it's not possible. I can remember when that went to tech or college path, there was arguments over 9th grade being to soon for a child to decide. As far as mainstreaming the lower students, that is why we are the greatest country on earth. We don't want to leave any child behind and we want all children to be able to socialize with others. I do agree that this hurts the higher level students, because the teachers have to teach on a lower level. We are kinda in a win/lose situation.

[ELA]

Both of you are making great points. First of all, we must have a core curriculum for all students and this is determined by the State. It is in the elective courses that we can specialize activities that will relate to each student's interest and abilities. The problem is money and resources. Large school districts will always have more resources to provide classrooms, teachers, and materials needed to teach a variety of specialized classes. Smaller school districts must band together with other systems to offer the same form of instruction. I do agree that every student needs English, History, Government, Science, and Math. I also think every student should have some physical activity training each year. I think we did a great disservice to our children when we took the PE requirement away from the secondary schools. Every child needs health and wellness classes and some introduction to fine arts (survey, art appreciation, etc.). I also agree with Pioneer that we need MORE career oriented classes for those who are not on the college track, and more intensive instruction for those students who are college bound!

[PowerSet]

As a middle school teacher, I can see pros and cons with most of what has been said on here. 90% of it can be traced right back to the parents. Their precious little baby is never at fault. Its the teachers who are wrong. We are held responsible for Johnny not knowing his multiplication tables, not doing well on an open-note test, not knowing hid Social Sceurity Number, and so on. Half of my 8th grade students don't know their own SS #. If a student decides to make drawings on a bubble sheet instead of putting down the correct answer, I am held responsible, and I'm not doing my job. Evidently students dont earn grades anymore, teachers give them grades. When I "fail" a student, its my fault?!? I dont give grades, students earn them. Parents seem to have a hard time realizing this.

 

As far as social promotion goes, to some point, it is necessary. I agree that a student should not be passed if he hasn't mastered the necessary material. However, when the student has no intention of putting forth any effort, and could care less if he passes, the there has to be a line somewhere. I have some students who will never graduate high school. Their parents didn't finish school, their siblings have dropped out, etc. Sure, there are exceptions. Neither of my parents finished high school, and here I am working on my masters. But most of the kids at my school who right now could care less will never make it.

 

If my daughter was a 12 year old 7th grader, I would not want a 17 year old boy with raging hormones in her classes, even if he is learning at her rate. There are too many things that could happen. At least in high school there are classes where the students are the same age.

 

I am not claiming to have all the answers, or I would be rich by now, but sometimes a grade earned by a student is more than a number on a sheet of paper.

[Edited by PowerSet on 4-25-03 7:39A]

 

[ELA]

Powerset you have made some very compelling arguments and I understand exactly what you are saying. We do have a small portion of students who simply don't care about learning anything. I had a boy once who was passed from the 5th grade on without EVERY passing a single class. He wasn't classified as "SE" until he reached the either grade and it became obvious that he wasn't learning. The school system wanted him out of junior high so they allowed him to "skip" the 8th grade to go directly to high school because he was SO BIG and many feared exactly what you suggested.

 

I fear that Pioneer's concept of enlarging alternative schools may someday be necessary, but I have a problem with the alternative school concept all together. In almost every system I have worked at, kids look forward to going "back to alternative school" because they get to play basketball. I have kids who can't functionally read or write, who can't pass my class, go to alternative school and return with a "99" on their history grade for me to average in with the grades they "earned" with me. One of two things is happening at alternative school, either that teacher is the best history teacher in the world, OR they earn a grade for just being quite and passing the time of the day. I could spend hours on this subject, but let me conclude that not much is required in the way of academics at MOST (not all) alternative school programs.

[Guest region4fan]

I think that Pioneer may be referring to Alternative school, not as a school kids are sent to for being kicked out of the regular school, but as alternative school is in Murfreesbor. We have a high school called Holloway. It is an alternative high school. This is for kids who have some learning disabilities, girls who have had babies,emotional problems,those who cannot excel in a large school or classroom. The class sizes are smaller, which means more one on one instruction. They teach the basics, but offer vocational classes such as auto shop, landscaping, cooking, etc. They can get the kids jobs in these fields.They might leave at lunch to go and work. They are supervised through the school and get class credit. The focus is helping the kid to be successful and graduate.They also have childcare where girls with babies can bring their kids for free. Others who may desire to make a career in childcare are assigned to this class to get experience. These kids do not go back to regular school. They graduate from Holloway. The only problem is that it is hard to get a spot. They want to keep #'s down so it is effective. The teachers that are teaching there truly like this kind of kid. I feel that this concept is a good one. It truly is an alternative where kids do not get swallowed up like sometimes happens. We also hav the Alternative school like I think you are talking about ELA where the kids go for awhile and then come back. I too feel that they are a total waste. Kids go to it for zero tolerance and come back to school way before the year is over. This zero tolerance is a joke!! These kids should have to PAY for their education until their year is up. That is what the problem is...kids do not have to face the consequences for their actions!

[ELA]

I am familiar with the school in Murfressboro. I wish every district had a "true" alternative school. We still need the "discipline" school to keep the problem kids off the street (verses being suspended), but there needs to be a place for kids who, for whatever reason, need to be segregated from the general student population. Ten years ago, this concept would have been on the "cutting edge" of education, but today, it would be considered politically incorrect in view of the NCLB Act.

 

By the way, will teachers in alternative schools be required to be certified in the sports they must teach? Boy will this through a "kink" in the alternative school philosophy.

[TNBballMan]

About the subject of having classes to help students learn more about what they want to do...there is a class in our county high schools that does that, not just the vocational school. Service Learning is the class. It allows students who have exemplary records in high school (attendance, grades, etc.) to go out on a job 2 hours in the morning and get work experience in the field they are considering going into. Not only does it help a student decide if that is what they wish to pursue after school, it gives them a good community reputation. The class does school and community projects. That is why it's called "Service" Learning. This year I was in this class and it has helped me greatly. I have learned that I sure don't want to be a pharmacist and that banking/finance is right up my alley along with teaching. I have learned many things about each and basically the student works for free. It is a great asset and I think every high school should have it. It is only for Seniors.

 

And as for my comments on mastering classes for college bound students---I think in order for students to stay on college path they should be able to make a C in all classes, electives and all throughout high school because it sure won't get any easier in college. I think it's absurd for a student to be graduating with about a D average on college path.

[SpaceCowboy]

ELA, It is unfortunate that you have had to deal with an alternative school that doesn't do its job. However, not all alternative schools are "sports academies". I teach in the alternative setting and consider myself to be more than a babysitter. In our program the students still take four classes. Into our schedule we have time built in for reading and social skills training. Most of our students are special education and must be given a FAPE (free and appropriate public education) as mandated by federal law. We employ a behavior management system which allows students to earn certain priveleges. These include snack breaks, PE time, use of computer, and even getting to choose their own lunch. It also includes training and a program to help students cope with stressful situations and physical restraint if necessary. The teachers at our school put in a great deal of time preparing for class and making students accountable. I spend most of my day teaching basic skills and trying to achieve IEP goals. Now, don't get me wrong. These students are no angels. I get cussed out on a daily basis, and sometimes I get threatened with physical harm. Teaching alternative school is a tough gig, if you do it right. Unfortunately, you can't save everyone. Alot of my students return to my class, and can't make it in the regular school setting. However, in alternative school, with constant supervision they do well. I feel the alternative school's greatest service is keeping disruptive students out of the regular classroom, so teachers can do their jobs. Without these settings those students would still be in your classes. By the way, I would love to go back and get certified to teach basketball, badminton, horse shoes, and bachi ball.

[ELA]

I feel the alternative school's greatest service is keeping disruptive students out of the regular classroom, so teachers can do their jobs. Without these settings those students would still be in your classes.

 

Spacecowboy... Man I feel for you! I have no doubt what you do is one of the toughest job's in education! I taught Saturday school for one year and I can't imagine what it would be like doing something like that all of the time. I love what I do but I just can't imagine the stress level of working at an alternative school. My hat is off to you and your associates! Has anyone talked to you about what the NCLB Act might do to those of you who work at alternative schools? It seems like the impact would be more there since you are required to cover for a wide variety of classes!

[SpaceCowboy]

I will ask about that at one of the info meetings coming up. Alternative schools may change in order to accomodate the NCLB Act. The stress level can be very high if you let it. You have to realize that you aren't going to save all of these kids, but if you help out 1 or 2 then you have made your community a better place. I am certified in History and my Political Science endorsement should be coming soon. I plan on getting out of alternative schools and back into the regular classroom. I feel that teaching in an alternative school has hurt me in my effort to become a Head Coach.

[WesTNFootball]

pioneer, I'm not saying that I do not agree with you, I am stating what the study found. Also the alternative HS would be a great idea, but it all comes down to the mighty dollar. School systems are short on money. It would be great if we could send all slow learners to a different school and all troubled kids to another, but you also run into laws that regulate what you can do with these kids. I think it would be better for these kids and also better for regular students.

[WesTNFootball]

Amen brother, you are exactly right. We want all the students to be low level. Instead of helping the low level, I too believe it has pulled down the upper level. I have a special kid in my class, and I love him to death, but I spend at least half of the class working with him. That is not fair to the other half, but this is what is expected. All of this aside, we still have the best educational systam in the world because we do educate all people.