Why Divisions in DII?

[TheEgoHasLanded]

It's also worth stating that the AA runner up BGA wildcats did beat the AAA champions MBA

 

 

The AA teams can do it, and I'm not saying they can't I'm just saying that school for school, its hard to do.

 

ECS, HARDING, BCS, and BGA would have all beaten Father Ryan (ECS beat them and those other schools beat ECS)...it can be done, just like 1a publics can be privates...

[CSense]

"Obviously the TSSAA believes that enrollment is a big factor, why can't you admit that is the biggest advantage there is...its even bigger than your dear "OPEN ZONES""

 

I agree that enrollment is definitely an advantage, I never said it wasn't. You say they are an advantage and you are right. The above statement makes me think that you do see somewhat of an advantage for "open zoned", maybe not as much as a 1000 student difference in enrollment, but an advantage none the less.

 

Some of the small private schools have been able to use this advantage albeit legally to build powerhouses. The product of this is an unfair advantage. Either ALL schools should be able to enroll anyone they please or none or split 'em. Unfortunately it is not the TSSAA who controls the enrollment guidelines of each public, private, or magnet school. It is the school or the school district that does. The TSSAA should see to it that all the members "play by the same rules". That is exactly why we have 5 classifications in football in the non financial aid area. The TSSAA saw the unfair advantage for large enrollments vs. small enrollments. There is enough evidence now for the TSSAA to see the open zoned advantages, or at least they should see it.

[TheEgoHasLanded]

I agree with your second paragraph. I never said Open Enrollment wasn't a big factor, IT is. But it is not as big of a factor as playing against a school 3 times your size...BECAUSE IF IT WAS, ALL THE 1A SCHOOLS WOULD DO IT!

Open Enrollment is a factor, but the difference is simple. Take USJ for instance, let's say all of USJ's players actually lived within 20 miles of the school (just the players, not all the students). Then open enrollment isn't as big of a factor...(What I'm trying to say, is that open enrollment MIGHT be a factor for some teams...but population is a factor for ALL teams.

 

The point of the matter is simple...the D2-AA schools can compete against the AAA schools in other sports and be very successful

 

Baseball-D2 AA school made it to the finals (Webb might have won)

Basketball-D2A school made it to the finals (Lausanne)

Girls Volleyball-Two D2AA in the finals (Harding won, Briarcrest participated)

Softball-D2 AA school made it to semi's (SBA)

 

The D2-AA schools can compete, and do compete against the AAA schools, its just that football is classified by enrollment and financial Aide...and both financial aide and enrollment play a big factor in D2.

 

 

I would bet that the D2-AAA schools give more financial aide than the D2-AA schools...simply looking at teams like Brentwood Academy.

[itzme]

Ego...

 

You wrote "I would bet that the D2-AAA schools give more financial aide than the D2-AA schools...simply looking at teams like Brentwood Academy." I would like to know what you mean. How can you look at a team and tell how many kids are on financial aid?

[TheEgoHasLanded]

Not what I am saying...

 

I am saying that I bet schools like BA give more financial aide than some schools...I do know that MUS does not give financial aide...but I have heard that McCallie and Baylor gave some guys that I know financial aide for athletics...

 

I remember when Brandon Wright transferred to BA from his middle school...I believe he chose between BA and a public school...perhaps BA gave him financial aide...don't know...don't really care...but guys like David Harrison, Brandon Wright, Tito Lee and many other standouts have gone to BA, and I just do not believe that they are willing to pay 5K-8K a year when they could get a good education, and still excell in sports at a regular school.

 

If I'm wrong I apologize...but I remember when I looked about a year ago the financial aide statements came out for each school and I believe that BA was in the top 3 and Baylor was number one.

[skeebob]

BA and the other Div. II schools do not "give" financial aid. They offer students, who are accepted, the opportunity for financial aid, if needed.

 

All students who want financial aid must apply for it through a third party, that determines who receives it and the amount of the aid.

 

While it is true that the actual financial aid dollars eventually comes from the school, the school itself does not determine who it "gives" financial aid to.

[rollredroll]

Private schools file form 990s, which are available for free online. Those affiliated with churches generally will not have financial data available.

 

All of the II-AAA schools for which there are data provide financial aid (including MUS, which provided over $500K in the '01-'02 school year), as do most of the II-AA schools that I referenced. Some schools, such as MUS in the '01-'02 school year, not only show the dollars provided (in the form of tuition "forgiveness") but also who received the dollars.

[TheEgoHasLanded]

We should find out how many dollars are given to students, and how many students are on it (some students probably are not athletes).

 

Then divide that number...the dollar figure, by the student number to come up with the average dollars given per student on aid.

 

Compare that to D2-AA schools...I would assume the D2-AA schools will be cheaper...I believe that schools like MUS, BAYLOR, McCallie, MBA cost more than Harding, BCS, Catholic etc.

 

Not only are the d2-AAA schools larger, but they might possibly be giving more financial aide.

[TheEgoHasLanded]

SAS?

 

They don't play in D2-AA which is the argument we are discussing.

[rollredroll]

We should find out how many dollars are given to students, and how many students are on it (some students probably are not athletes).

 

Then divide that number...the dollar figure, by the student number to come up with the average dollars given per student on aid.

 

Compare that to D2-AA schools...I would assume the D2-AA schools will be cheaper...I believe that schools like MUS, BAYLOR, McCallie, MBA cost more than Harding, BCS, Catholic etc.

 

Not only are the d2-AAA schools larger, but they might possibly be giving more financial aide.

Ego, there isn't much data on the II-AA schools out there, but based on one example I did find data for (Harding Academy), I would say your assertion is largely true.

 

It is pretty interesting to see the different levels of disclosure by the various schools. A couple of schools (I already mentioned MUS as one of them) have at least once (or annually in the case of MUS) provided clearly not only how much financial aid was provided but also the names of specific students who received the aid (and yes, some "athletes" have received partial scholarships, but not in the numbers that people tend to believe). More of the schools just provided actual dollars provided as financial aid and clearly labeled it as such. I also found one school which, for the last two years, did everything possible to mask how much financial aid it provided (versus the two years prior to that, when it was slightly more forthcoming in its disclosures).

[itzme]

Not what I am saying...

 

I am saying that I bet schools like BA give more financial aide than some schools...I do know that MUS does not give financial aide...but I have heard that McCallie and Baylor gave some guys that I know financial aide for athletics...

 

I remember when Brandon Wright transferred to BA from his middle school...I believe he chose between BA and a public school...perhaps BA gave him financial aide...don't know...don't really care...but guys like David Harrison, Brandon Wright, Tito Lee and many other standouts have gone to BA, and I just do not believe that they are willing to pay 5K-8K a year when they could get a good education, and still excell in sports at a regular school.

 

If I'm wrong I apologize...but I remember when I looked about a year ago the financial aide statements came out for each school and I believe that BA was in the top 3 and Baylor was number one.

Ego...

 

How can you state that that's "Not what (you) are saying", when I directly quoted your post? You still did not answer my original question. How can you look at a team and tell how many kids are on financial aid? Is it by their success? In that case, MBA must have the most football players on scholarship. BA (sadly) has yet to win a DII state football championship. This past season was the first DII basketball championship. Yes, they won track this past year also, but I do know for an absolute fact that they would have won if only full tuition students had participated.

 

I understand your clarification, but do want to point a couple of things out. Not making an argument out of it, because I don't presume that you are attacking. I simply think it's important for readers of this board to understand how things work.

 

First, MUS does indeed give financial aid.

 

To answer another question you posed, which is a good one, BA budgets 10% of all paid tuition and annual donations to providing financial aid.

 

There are many misconceptions, not the least of which is that Division II schools give "athletic scholarships". They do not, and cannot. In addition, at least at Brentwood Academy, no student is on 100% financial aid. Most pay a higher amount than you might believe.

 

Brandon Wright's mother stated last year that he had narrowed his final choices to Goodpasture, BA and MLK Magnet. He chose BA for a number of reasons, I'm sure, but financial aid cannot be offered by a school before enrollment, and then it is based solely on need. I do not know for a fact that he is on any kind of aid. Knowing the family, I would say that they were looking for a good basketball program, good academics, a safe environment, and a school with a Christian perspective.

 

You should not presume that any elite athlete is on financial aid. David Harrison, whom you cited, is the son of a former professional football player, who was (and may still be?) an assistant coach at Vandy. Typically that kind of family would not qualify for any aid. Of the six BA football players that got DI scholarships last year, I know all of the families, and only one of those kids got any financial aid whatsoever from BA.

 

Most families choose to make the financial sacrifice and send their kids to a DII school, or any other independent school for any number of reasons. The potential to get some financial aid is surely among those reasons for some, but the other reasons for doing so are numerous, and have been repeated ad-infinitum on this board.

Edited June 10, 2003 by itzme

[TheEgoHasLanded]

Look,

 

I never said an athlete such as B. Wright, Harrison, or any other standout wouldn't go to BA just for athletics...they might very well.

 

What I said was, I had a hard time believing that those individuals would go there, pay 5-8K a year, when they could get a good education and still be a standout basketball or football player at a regular public school. If you are going to sit there and tell me those standout players aren't on scholarship or aide that is fine, I'll believe you...my school has individuals that were on scholarship, or took a loan, I have no problem admitting that, I could private message you and tell you who they were, but it doesn't matter...I'm not trying to single kids out.

 

If you were a great basketball player, and you could go to one college for free (such as a public school) or you could go to another college and play but you would have to pay (such as a private school). Which would you choose? Most people would choose to the first, and I don't think you will disagree with it...but some would favor the academics, religious, and other values instilled at the private college perhaps that is what those individuals did...

 

 

The point of the matter is, AAA schools have larger enrollments, and they are giving much bigger scholarships then other schools (or lower tutions to some students) and yet the AA or A schools still compete against them...

 

Whether they are successful is beside the point...thats an advantage.

Edited June 10, 2003 by TheEgoHasLanded