Should all players play in winning by 20 or losing

[jacketsfan13]

I think you have to look at each game on an individual basis. We all know of coaches and teams who are notorious for running up the score and to them I say your time will come. But I agree that a 20 point lead with 3 min to go is not that comforting. There are teams who may have that lead, but may also have a hard time scoring and if the other team was to go on a run, it is hard for them to make up that many points. I think the entire team should get a chance to play, but those subs also have to be able to hold the lead.

 

What aggravates me as much as coaches who run the score up are those coaches who have trailed by 20 or more the entire game and when the other coach subs, the losing coach decides to leave his starters in and press when they have not pressed all night. I have seen this happen several times. There is a time to throw in the towel. Many coaches of losing teams do not sub either. Many coaches who have been burnt by this are the ones who are wary of subbing early.

 

This brings me to another question. In a game where one team is obviously better and leading by a sizable margin, which team should put the subs in first? The winning team, or losing team. Seems like an easy answer, most of you are thinking the winning team, but many coaches will keep their starters in until the losing coach gives up.

 

Thoughts on this???

[celticdynasty33]

Somebody please get me a towel for all the coaches whining and crying.

 

I think NUMBERONE is speaking of the games where it is obvious you see the team jump out to a 20 point lead by about the 1st period and hold it until the half knowing without a doubt that your starters are in complete control of the game.

 

Being afraid of losing a 20 point lead is a sign of weakness in a coach. Something tells me this coach is not doing his job during practices. If he is working with his bench during practice then there will be no problem. In fact to lose a 20 point lead in a game of this nature would be close to miraculous. But being afraid never helps anyone. If winning is so very, very important to the coaches ego then he has a problem. If he is that afraid of losing his job, then he should quit anyway because he is weak minded and it is only a matter of time before they fire him anyway. If a coach shows the weakness of being afraid of losing, his team / starters will eventually start disrespecting him. It is just one of those non verbal things that kids can see.

 

Jadoka - working on a kids weakness or helping him develop his skills during a a blow out game??????? What is coaching coming to?? And practicing ballhandling during a game?? or 3 point shooting? Are you kidding?? Are they trying to learn some "AND ONE" moves or something? I don't mean to be hating on you friend, but that is why you have practice after school. Don't you think that demoralizes your bench after they have worked through practice, then they get to come to the game to watch the starters practice in the game!!! Believe me, I wouldn't work hard for you in practice either if I was on your team.

 

And bigAsport you say you want parents to come to your practices to help motivate the kids to play!!?? Are you sure of that??? I don't know who you are but I dare you to announce that at your next practice!!! Your parents ought to just love you! As for your saying at the bottom of your reply:

"1. The coach is always right

2. If the coach is wrong refer back to 1."

Please that is just not what being a coach is all about - it may sound funny, but that just cuts the soul right out of what coaching is all about. Nobody can respect that - Refer back to "johnwoodendisciple" comment about Raymonds brother IF you continue to think that way.

 

As for poor refs and 20 point leads - it is obvious if you are going to lose a lead because of ref, you are going to lose the lead with or without your starters!

 

Here are the basic reasons why most kids don't get to play during a game like this:

 

1. Coach has a huge ego - must win and win big to show he is a GREAT COACH!

2. Coach is afraid - again this is a terrible weakness that eventually will get the coached fired anyway - so WHY worry! Go make some kid happy and put him in the game!

3. Coach is selfish - has some ulterior motive to get something from kid he is playing

4. Coach has member of family on his team - he wants this kid to shine so leave him in and build his stats

 

I have been on both sides of the fence in this situation. Do I like control and winning, yes but not at the expense of helping everyone I select on the team grow. If I select you on my team I am going to develop you for playing in the game, not to use you as practice dummy. Teaching a kid how to be competitive is important. But this winning at all cost is not what the game is all about. Let the kid play and I promise you will get more respect from everybody in the crowd and create everlasting memories and friendships that will never die. If you look over at your bench and they are not excited about the game, then you are not doing something right. High School is entirely different than college or pro ball - it is NOT do or die. If you lose your job because you play the bench, people will remember you and you will be able to look those kids in the face later on and say "I did the right thing". Enjoy coaching and teaching.

Edited January 8, 2004 by celticdynasty33

[jacketsfan13]

Once again I think this issue depends on the game. I agree Celtic if the team has been ahead by 20 the entire game and in obviously in control the coach should have subbed long before the last 3 minutes. The type of game I was throwing out there is one that has been close for much of the night and one team has managed to pull ahead. I am just offering possible reasons a coach may have for being reluctant to sub, I do not agree with this philosophy. What about the other question. Who should sub first, the losing team or the winning team? what do you do when the other coach won't sub and your bench is weaker than the opponent's starters? The remark about starters trying to work on skills is ridiculous.

Edited January 8, 2004 by tigersfan

[bigAsports]

Celtic you obviously have no coaching experience and from your remarks I can see why "not capable". I do not allow parents or anyone for that matter in my practices. So your really off the mark with that one. If you are up or down by 20 in a game you are never out of it. Good coaches for the most part know what they are up against, against oppossing teams. Yes when it gets down to the last couple minutes odds are the game is out of reach. But many times I have seen or been in a game down by 20+ only to come back and win. Thats not being AFRAID thats just making the appropriate coaching decisions and leaving the correct lineup on the floor. Yes some coaches get comfortable up by 20 only to sub and lose the lead. You can work on many things in practice but it will never be what its like in a game. Thats why you practice those situations in games. As far as your basic reasons why kids don't play in games like this. You have no clue as to why or why not the kid plays. You sound like a typical unhappy with your sons playing time parent. Now there are coaches out there that don't treat kid right and give them the respect they deserve as players. For you to tell me how I should or shouldn't coach without knowing me and my system is over the line. You have your right to feel the way you do about coaches and there decisions but to attack all coaches in that sense is wrong. A piece of advise, learn the game a little better and understand how it works.

Edited January 8, 2004 by bigAsports

[aj1133]

As a coach, I will continue to coach in a game just as hard when down twenty as I would down two, so when an opposing coach puts in his subs up twenty with three minutes left, I don't think it is necessary to sub, I want to make the opposing coach pay for giving up on my team before the game is over. As a coach, how would it look to your team if you give up on them before the game is over. Twenty points is not an insurmontible lead with minutes remaining.

[NUMBERONE]

Thank you Celticdynasty33 you are getting what I am talking about. I have noone on any team and I don't care about what the coach thinks or what the parents think. Just as a person is there watching a team that since the 1st quarter in the game you could tell the game was over and who had the best team. I know 20 points can be gained quick but when you are playing a team who cannot even get the ball across the half court because of press and you press every play then you know you have the upper hand in a game. With 3 minutes left in a game even the crowd knows who will win the game. It doesn't take a coach to look at a clock at 3 minutes in a game and say well I don't know if we can win when the team you play cannot take a press and is only in the game because you have told your team to not press and play. I know what I saw at the game I am talking about and there is not any way this team could had won unless the winning team sat down and gave them the ball. I have seen this happen in more than one game with this team and for the older players who sit on the bench I feel it was a slap in there face. #1 is the coach has to be that player to know his or her feelings and they don't know the kids feelings so you cannot think you do. If a coach really has feeling they would notice all the players on the bench and treat them like they are a part of the team. As I said I have noone on any team but to me it looked like the coach was being either selfish or that the coach isn't worried about next year. You cannot expect a child to come off the bench and be put in a game and be perfect. All they need is just a chance to play. It is a sad world to see so much respect for adults when the adults don't give the respect back. How will these kids grow and do others when they are done this way?

[celticdynasty33]

First off , bigAsport and Jadoka , I apologize for going off in my last reply. I guess it was my coach Knight side popping out of me. Sling a chair across the room for me - please!

 

BigAsport, you say “ I do not allow parent in my practices” and “Also most parents do not attend practices so they do not know what there kid is doing during that time.” Are these conflicting statements? I think you are right in saying that parents do not know what is going on because the coach does not communicate to them or the player what there expectations are for the season. If you are going to use your Senior in his final year only for practicing – let him know. Communicating this is only fair and the kid will never expect to walk on the court, but when you do surprise him and put him out there you are the hero. I see so many parents pop a cork because they just do not understand. If you communicate this on the front end, then they have no right to come back on you later in the season griping or whining. Am I a disgruntled parent because my kid doesn’t play? My son played all four years and started his Soph., Jr and Sr year. It is the NUMBERONE’s that are dedicated to the team in their Sr year that really gets to me. They hope for that chance to play and it just doesn’t come. It is apparent NUMBERONE has a coach that does not communicate with him and is basically just using him for practice. The coach should be obligated to explain to this young man his position. Coach Wooden explained this to all his players. If you were a bench player he told you in the beginning. If you wanted to stay and learn, that was ok with him. If you wanted to leave, that too was ok with him. It is the civil and right thing to do. You may be doing this – if so they should not gripe!

 

I once listened to an interview of Coach K at Duke and he said he actually met with his players and asked them if it would be ok to start another person in his position (both players are there and discussing this openly). Now believe me that shocked me too! But it makes sense! If you communicate with them like humans, instead treating of treating them as “slaves”, they respond and will work with you. There are many reasons why Coach K keeps his teams in the top rankings, but I believe this is the main one. His players I really believe love him. Few coaches get this kind of respect. If he says jump 10 feet, I am going to bet they are going to try 11 feet. If your coach actually feels you are important enough to discuss how to play the game, you will work your guts out for him – at least I would. Ruling with an iron fist is quickly becoming a lost art. The “I am the BOSS and do what I say – kick’em in the pants” attitude just doesn’t work anymore. If you work in business or manufacturing today, and you try treating people this way, you will get fired. Coach Knight is probably the last of this breed – he is good and has won championships like this (listening to his interviews after leaving Indiana he has become slightly more humble) , but it is obvious his counterpart and student Coach K has learned the better way.

 

As for 20 point leads – again I am speaking of when you get the lead in the first half and you just know that the game is basically over. Your starters could come back in and develop the same lead within 5 to 8 minutes if the subs lost the lead. Now if you are coaching a team that is on the losing end always – that is tough too and is a toss up in my opinion. If I am in a game and I am behind 20 points, probably my starters, if they are working hard, stay in until about 4 to 5 minutes to go – I agree with you! But we both know when it is obvious and highly unlikely the other team is going to come back and NUMBERONE wants his chance to play. I know miracles can happen and teams do come back – but so what!!! WIN WIN WIN is that what it is ALL about? In my opinion only, I just don’t think so. If it is the state championship that is one thing, yes keep your starters in, but a regular district game – you can chance that. Besides, there is more to life than just winning. When I look down the bench at NUMBERONE and he has practice hard for me 4 years in high school basketball, he is going in with a 20 point lead. And that doesn’t mean you have to dump the whole bench in at one time either – freshman and sophomores should wait their turn especially if it is your practice not to play them (I know this has changed considerably over the past 10 to 20 years also). So what if you flirt with a loss!!! I guarantee you will gain respect for doing this. One last example, check out the movie “Rudy” about Rudy Ruettiger playing football at Notre Dame ( if you are not a big fan of Notre Dame I can understand – but it is good!). If you watch this and can tell me the coach is ALWAYS right, then I will agree with you. How many NUMBERONEs walk away from the game not liking their coach because of this? If I grow old and NUMBERONE comes up and gives me a big hand shake and grins – I will go to the grave satisfied.

 

Have a great basketball season!

Edited January 9, 2004 by celticdynasty33

[shady04]

I think if a team is up by 20 or more points, the coach should put in the reserves. It is a little thing called respect. I really dont like it when a team tries to run up the score. As to wether or not a coach should put in a reserve when down by 20 depends on the time remaining and the potential of the team. Last year Blackman played Smyrna which turned out to be a very close game. Smyrna was up by 20 at the half and Blackman came back only to lose by 3 in a last second thriller

[NUMBERONE]

Thanks celticdynasty33. I am so glad you understand and its to bad all coaches are not like you.