Jordan Leen

[Sommers]

Walkenvol,  Thanks for the civil response.  My original post was meant as a "pro" Jordan Leen post.  Somehow my post seemed to take on an anti-Patrick flavor but it wasn't meant to.  I was merely trying to justify why I see AA in Leen's future but in comparison not so much in the younger Simpson's.  I apologize if anyone was offended.     

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So, you're finding it easy to offend on here too? I've found you'd better watch your opinion on this board with a few folks.

 

One opinion I will share that shouldn't offend is that Jordan should be one of Tennessee's best, and he has been blessed to go up to Ithaca, NY. If he hasn't been up to Buttermilk Falls to slide down the falls and done some cliff diving yet, he's in for a real treat. That place is beautiful, as is Watkin's Glen!! ...And a great Ivy League school and good people up there as well.

 

soms

[walkenvol]

That was Maurice Worthy from Army

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Thanks, Maurice Worthy. Any idea what his record was like before his run in the NCAA's his senior season?

[mjgIII]

Thanks, Maurice Worthy.  Any idea what his record was like before his run in the NCAA's his senior season?

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You may be onto something there walkenvol. While Mr. Worthy was a good wrestler, he didn't really shine until his senior year.

I know Maurice qualified for the NCAAs as a Freshman with a third place finish in the EIWA tournament. As a second year, he did not place in the EIWA. His Jr year he again took third. Senior year he won the EIWA and was OW. He did not place in the NCAAs until his Sr. year when he was 34-1 and took second.

[Nainten]

Thanks, Maurice Worthy.  Any idea what his record was like before his run in the NCAA's his senior season?

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I don't know what his specific records were but here is what I do know about Maurice Worthy. According to intermat he ended his freshman season ranked 19 th at 157. I believe he was injured his sophmore season and did not wrestle. His junior year he ended up with a final ranking of 14th. Both of his active seasons he went to nationals. His senior year of course he finished second with -- I think -- one loss on his record.

 

I am "open" to the possibility that the academy experience may in some cases retard the development of some wrestlers but at this point I tend to think it is the exception rather than the rule. I am too lazy to look this up but it would be interesting to see what the freshman and sophmore records are for service academy all-Americans in the last 25 years or so. Worthy obviously showed his pedigree early on as has Phillip Simpson, and believe it or not so did Navy's Mark Conley. Mark had something like a 25-8 record and a 4th place finish at EIWAs his sophmore year. He didn't qualify for nationals that year because they only took the top three at 141. That was his first year at varsity. Army's Luke Calvert (184) has been outstanding since his plebe year and nationally ranked since his sophmore year. He also stands a decent shot to stand on the podium in St. Louis this year in a tough weight class.

 

Bottom line: you make a good point and it's food for thought. My reluctance to buy in to it right away probably comes from the perspective I have gained from being intimately familiar with the service academies ( I graduated USNA in mid-80's and wrestled for a time while there) and have very closely followed both Army and Navy wrestling for the last 21 years. Most of the guys who made AA, IMO showed their stuff early on (even if not consistently) during their freshman or sophmore years. IMO it's a rare event when a wrestler who hasn't placed at the EIWA's in his first two or three years goes on to place AA. In such a case -- and one does come to mind at this point -- injuries played a major role.

 

Incidentally, I noted incorrectly that Mark Conley was TF'ed by Strittmatter in his junior year. It was Doug Schwab to tech'ed him.

Edited February 1, 2005 by Nainten

[walkenvol]

Nainten,

In light of your experience there, your point of view carries more weight then mine which is based only on what I have been told. I still think Patrick has a fair shot before he graduates, at least I'm rooting for him. Thanks for the interesting discussion. BTW, do they call freshmen plebes at the USMA?

[Nainten]

You may be onto something there walkenvol.  While Mr. Worthy was a good wrestler, he didn't really shine until his senior year.

I know Maurice qualified for the NCAAs as a Freshman with a third place finish in the EIWA tournament.  As a second year, he did not place in the EIWA.  His Jr year he again took third.  Senior year he won the EIWA and was OW.  He did not place in the NCAAs until his Sr. year when he was 34-1 and took second.

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Maybe he didn't shine as much as he did his senior year but I'd say he definitely shined some (nationally ranked both years) and showed his potential the two complete years he did wrestle. I guarantee you the folks in the EIWA community knew they had a diamond early on. Worthy was a very defensive wrestler and his matches tended to be low scoring against top tier guys and lower tier guys but there was no denying his skill and talent once you saw him wrestle.

[Nainten]

Nainten,

In light of your experience there, your point of view carries more weight then mine which is based only on what I have been told.  I still think Patrick has a fair shot before he graduates, at least I'm rooting for him.  Thanks for the interesting discussion.  BTW, do they call freshmen plebes at the USMA?

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Walkenvol, I wasn't trying to convince you that Patrick has no shot. Although I suppose I may have come off that way. I think he has a shot too. I tend to temper my optimism with a dose of realism (not that you or anyone else doesn't). I'd say it's realistic to expect Patrick to place at EIWA's, go to nationals this year, and hopefully get a couple of wins. That's a great year by any standard...well...unless you're a Gable trained guy. But anything above that would be fantastic. Based on what he has already done this year I definitely expect him to go next year and wouldn't be surprised if he pulls out AA. Hey if he exceeds my expectations this year I'm not going to be disappointed. I love it when Navy and Army guys do well. Despite the rivalry there is a mutual admiration and respect between us. In fact, let me relate one of the more poignant moments I have witnessed at an Army-Navy wrestling event. It involves Phillip Simpson. As you know Phillip was a phenom his phreshman year (couldn't help it ). That year he faced Navy senior Mark Conley three times at the All-Academy tournament, the dual, and at Easterns. He lost all three. It was a big rivalry because all the matches were very competitive and Phillip was quite the pinner at 141. Conley graduated and went off to become a Navy Seal. Last year I was at the All-Academy tournament sitting with a friend who happens to be an Army grad. He taps my shoulder and draws my attention to Phillip Simpson who is walking up the bleachers and embraces a guy in the stands. It was obviously a relative or old friend. It was Mark Conley. My friend and I looked at each other with smiles. It was a warm fuzzy moment that underscores the bond service academy guys have regardless of circumstances. So yeah I root for Army in 27 of 29 events each year.

 

They are plebes at West Point and Annapolis and they call them Knobs at either VMI or Citadel.

[Nainten]

So, you're finding it easy to offend on here too?  I've found you'd better watch your opinion on this board with a few folks.

 

One opinion I will share that shouldn't offend is that Jordan should be one of Tennessee's best, and he has been blessed to go up to Ithaca, NY.  If he hasn't been up to Buttermilk Falls to slide down the falls and done some cliff diving yet, he's in for a real treat.  That place is beautiful, as is Watkin's Glen!!  ...And a great Ivy League school and good people up there as well.

 

soms

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What's that old saying," Life's hard. It's harder when you are stupid." That's me . It's too easy to offend folks on forums inadvertantly. Especially when you are new to it. I still need to get the flavor for this one. I try to be mindful of folks' feelings but I like to be honest and unbiased whenever I can. Sometimes people don't care for candid opinions or even facts.

 

By the way, lost in all this is the fact that I agree with you about Jordan Leen. He is showing early on that he has the stuff. What a find he was for Coach Koll. I follow the national high school picture a little bit and read up on most of the top recruits but I admit I had never heard of Jordan Leen. Do you happen to know what other colleges courted him? I look a kid like that and ask myself, "Why didn't we (Navy) go after this kid?" Cornell's recruiting the last couple of years has been off the charts. This coming year may be their best yet.

Edited February 1, 2005 by Nainten

[walkenvol]

It's too easy to offend folks on forums inadvertantly.  Especially when you are new to it.  I still need to get the flavor for this one.

I had never heard of Jordan Leen.  Do you happen to know what other colleges courted him? 

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If you follow this board long enough, you will learn that Soms has an opinion and comment on every topic posted albeit little to no first hand knowledge of any.

 

Most of the folks I'm sure would love to hear more of your perspective as apparantly you are not from TN.

 

I'm no authority on Jordan Leen, but I did see him win senior nationals in Cleveland, OH last year at 130 and I do recall him telling me that he took several official visits last season including Stanford and Harvard. There were probably others also.

[reftn]

Please, you guys keep posting. This is great reading.

 

reftn

[Sommers]

What's that old saying," Life's hard.  It's harder when you are stupid."  That's me  .  It's too easy to offend folks on forums inadvertantly. 

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I'm stupid too, but that still offends or threatens some at times. But. it's all good!! thumb

 

Where are you from? This will probably offend some, but I gained a lot of respect for NY wrestling while in upstate NY in the early eighties.

 

soms

[Nainten]

I'm stupid too, but that still offends or threatens some at times.  But. it's all good!! thumb

 

Where are you from?  This will probably offend some, but I gained a lot of respect for NY wrestling while in upstate NY in the early eighties.

 

soms

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I've never spent a lot of time in New York. Just on visits and pass-throughs, so I can't say much about their wrestling on the high school level. What little I do know is mostly from what I've heard and read. My impression is that NY is rich in quality D1 wrestlers but plays second fiddle to neighboring Pennsylvania and often New Jersey in the east. No question, however, that it's one of the top wrestling states in the country in terms of putting out a large number of good college wrestlers.

 

I've lived a nomadic existence. I've lived in Boston, Puerto Rico, Maryland, Rhode Island, San Diego, and now I reside in the great state of Tennessee. I just moved to the Memphis area about six months ago.

 

So while you were in NY, did you become a Y-Y-Yan-Yan...give me a second here, I have trouble saying it...YYankees fan?...whew, there I said it. Sorry. It's tough for me to get that word out. A little easier nowadays but still tough nonetheless.