imasoftballer

You said a mouth full in an earlier post. BA moved up and won the 5A championship (with a 1A enrollment). How did they do this? Work harder? Better coaches? What? No, they have advantages that public schools can not over come. You can bring up finacial aid but that is only a small factor. BA still could not recruit any kids even if they were giving aid and the recruitment rules are still in place. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't you accuse BA and other DII schools of recruiting? I don't think you have proof of this. If you do you should be testifying in court

Then give us a reason why the Ezell softball team has not moved up!!! They have won the state at least 12 times in 15 years. I have said and will say it again, this has nothing to do with one school or just about football. Too many times I think many people on here just want to focus on football and one or two schools. We have to look at the overll picture and if you do that you will see the trend of the private schools. They dominate baseball, they dominate softball, they dominate track and they are now starting to dominate basketball and football.

Uh, people who do make more money do pay more taxes! I asked a question and you choose to rant instead of answering it. Sure you are right, for everyone of "you", I can find a public school kid just as good or better, but student for student, surely you recognized the difference. Oh, and if we should not separate people, then let anyone who wants to come to your school come!!! [Edited by imasoftballer on 12-13-02 2:15P]

What is it you suggest? Should public schools start weeding through their "not so good students"? If we do, what do we do with them? Think about it, how many teachers out there would love to have a classroom full of students who are willing to learn, respectful of their teachers, motivated by either themselves or by their parents or both. If the percentages of students like this in private schools were only 75% that would be about 3 times as many that attends a public school. Your teachers are no more superior than ours, your OVERALL student body is because they are hand picked. They are hand picked for academics, behavior and athletics! [Edited by imasoftballer on 12-13-02 1:54P]

That is not right. The student has to show residency in a school zone to attend that school. It has to be a parent or a legal gaurdian's address not someone they are just staying with. I agree with an earlier post, until the TSSAA cracks down on ALL schools who are not doing things according to the rules, as they were laid out to be, even a spilt will not totally fix the problems we are seeing. Zones and recruiting are the issues. Recruiting, until proven, can not be used but it happens. I'm sure the private supporters think schools like Shelbyville and Maryville recruit, as do many public school supporters but until you have proof or until the TSSAA steps in and does something about it nothing will be solved totally.

The merit system "sounds" great but I do not think it would work and here's why... high school team's (mostly the public ones) talent level changes too much from year to year. The merit system has been used for years in men's softball and I think you will find that the majority of players that play will say the system does not work. How many think that with a merit sysytem in place that Ezell would have run up scores like they did last year? You could have a team with several Jrs. in skill positions play and do very well but come up short in the playoffs but the merit system would bump them up. In the upper division they do O.K. but again fail in the playoffs. The system keeps them where they are. The next year the get hammered by every one. The system did nothing for them. Some small 1A teams only get a team like this once in 20 years and the merit system could keep them from winning a title because of one good year. Plus TSSAA is not going to be able to keep up with all the changing that is going to take place in a merit system. You are taking about a BCS type of system that is going to have to be used and how many people think that system is not flawed???

I would think that with all the hardships that privates schools have already overcome ie... starting a new school, building new buildings and sports facilities without goverment aid (tax dollars), convincing parents and kids that your school is the place to be, bring your teams from doormats to champions, etc. etc. etc.. that a little extra travel 2 or 3 Friday nights will be an easy hardship to overcome.

I just don't get the use of words like punish, or banish and the like. It is not like the TSSAA is saying private schools can no longer play sports! Or privates will no longer be able to play in playoff games. Those are banishment and punishment. I could take that same article and instead of using private schools I could replace it with public schools who are moved up a class during a classification year. Why do they get banished to a different class? Why punish them just cause they got a few more student over a period of a couple of years? I don't like it when people try to make this a one or two school issue. It is not about what one or two schools(private) are doing or winning. It is what private schools across the board are doing. A very small minority of the schools are taking a majority of the playoff spots. If everything was equal(or even close to equal), statistically this should not be happening. But it is and it leaves the question, WHY? [Edited by imasoftballer on 12-6-02 10:03A]

OK let me reply to your post. I'm glad you don't endorse cheating, I didn't think you would. Why are Dingo's and my posts rants? I am not tring to crack a case against privates. And you are right books can be made to look however somebody wants them to look. Ask Enron! I too think we agree on several points. I think you do see the plight of the small rural school and I thank you for looking at the situation with both eyes wide open. On the other hand I think you would have to say that I have stood up against some of the public school supporters when nonrelevent issused have been used against them. As far as families helping families, I think you will see that I said that that in and of itself is not a bad thing, I just think you run into problems when those kids are student/athletes. I never did see an answer to my question about public school students who were from outside their zone. I asked, If kids outside a zone have to pay to go to a school, are the ones who are in that zone not recieving finacial aid by not having to pay??? Something to think about. [Edited by imasoftballer on 12-6-02 7:49A]

Once again you got in on the middle of a conversation between Dingo and myself and then you pick out parts of my text and try to put your own spin on it. The only reson I brought up this example was... dingo said schools had to claim all their losses on a 990 and I provided an example of how the school would not have to even show a loss. If I am not mistaken, several times in my post I make it clear that this has only happend at one school to my knowledge. I have never said anything about it happening anywhere else and this is the last time I will defend my post on this matter. Why would you hope this is happening at your school? Do you endorse cheating?

I am not applying anything to any other school. I don't know why you keep saying that??? But, on the other hand, you could not possibly know if this is happening at your school or any other school unless you were directly involved. You would have to know every kid in the school and you would have to know that kid's family financial staus.

We have had two private suppoters get on here and openly accuse DII privates of recruiting(cheating) yet they mention no names, no schools, nothing. Yet, if the same is done to a DI private team you guys scream "give me proof, gime me names, take it to TSSAA. Well, I say the same to you guys. Give us proof, give us names, take it to the TSSAA. Recruiting by DII schools is illegal and should be dealt with. Ego, Why the post to me about coaches salaries? I have said money, coaches and several other things are not issues of debate here. Do you feel that they are? I could care less if every private coach made $10,000 more than every public coach, that is not an advantage that the TSSAA has any say about.

You misunderstood about the recruiting. I know the public schools look at it in a very real light. But as far as the TSSAA is concerned recruiting is not going to heard as an arguement. Recruiting as defined by the TSSAA, that is. I totally agree that private schools can recruit(term used loosely) in ways that are legal in the TSSAA eyes and are by the book but yet, it is something that public schools(most not all) cannot do. The finacial point... I too am sure the school officals would NOT want to knowanything about any money changing hands. Just as college coaches don't ever want to know. Even though they see kids who can not afford to buy lunch all of a sudden wearing Armani suits. I sure it is a don't ask, don't tell policy! I know of one case where the local churches were asked to sponsor a kid to go to private school. That is well and good as long as that kid is not an athlete. To my knowledge the churches did not provide the money but someone did. The kids family could not afford it.

It sounds as though this private supporter believes that other private schools do recruit. Is this the case JaxMan??? I don't think the word recruiting is even being said at any TSSAA meetings. If it was there would have to be proof and teams would be punished, so recruiting is really not an issue even though many think it takes place. The debate is not over what school is winning and who does TSSAA punish. It is over advantages that any private school has over a public school. Advantages that are relevent to TSSAA rules, such as zones. Money, coaches, public support, facilities, etc... are not advantages that TSSAA has any control over. On the other hand if zones were inforced upon private schools they would virtually be shut down. So the only other option that many see is a split. Either within or outside of TSSAA.

Dingo, In response to the tution issue... there are ways around the paper work. Churches or local businessmen can get the money to the parents of a student who wants to attend a private school but does not have the money to attend. I know this has happened at least once at one school and that maybe the only time it has ever happened in the history of private schools but I don't think so. As far as bad debt being written off, would it show up as tution debt or just a debt in general. And, if you have reserched some of these schools have you seen evidence of schools writting off unpaid tutions as bad debt? In respose to the recruiting(illegal) issue... recruiting is NOT an issue unless there is proof. I have no proof so I do not use it as an arguement. I will say that private schools with succesful programs will self-recruit. They will draw talented athletes on their on merit. A lot of the recruiting(legal) is done on the AAU level, public and private. The coaches active seek out players, get them in their program(AAU) and go from there. If players enjoy playing with the team and have a good relationship with the coach, it is only logical that that student might think about attending the school where that coach coaches.

Your feelings, just like mine, don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to this discussion! I too think that a split is the only solution to this matter and I'm glad you FEEL the same way! BTW I have provide a single incident. Also, why would the private want to continue playing the Jr High er 1A publics? Surely Jr. High er 1A publics can not provide you with enough competition to keep your private programs improving. I have heard it many times you have to play the best to be the best! Jr. High er 1A publics could not be the best you could play, could they??? :confused: [Edited by imasoftballer on 12-3-02 9:39A]

VG, I think we have established that most solid c students in public school can pass and get into private schools so the test scores really don't limit that much. A big donation would get almost anyone in, is my guess! I know it worked that way in a private college. You always seem to gloss over those few students who do not come from the county. Are any of those kids athletes? I bet some are and I bet some are really good at the sport they play. I'll also take it by the statements you have made that the schools you are referring to have never had a student attend their school who did not pay. The school has never written off tuition as bad debt. That makes me go HMMMMM!

I do understand what you are saying and I am not trying to close any private schools down. I am not advocating that private schools have zones, I just point out that by not having any they have an advantage over most 1a and 2a schools. As far as anyone using that against me, I beg to differ. I agree with the private supporter's points about magnet schools and other public schools who draw students outside their given zones. If these private schools were having to play the likes of Shelbyville in girls basketball and Maryville in football they too would see what it is like to play teams that draw students from a larger than given area. As to other points given to be an advantage for private schools... sure there are more than just the zones and what I FEEL about any of those is irrelavent. Chakra earlier asked for a case and I gave him one then he tried to claim I was blanketing all private schools with what I said. Something that I deny doing! You may ask what do I feel about those things? 1. I feel that privates do recruit. 2. I feel that some public schools recruit also. 3. I feel that some students tuitions are either paid for by others or are written off as bad debt when a student/athlete cannot pay up. 4. I feel in cases 1 and 2 undue presure is never used, just offers of things the student may feel they cannot accomplish at their present school. Now, I know several are going to get on here and say "You said this and you said that" for the most part I have never used recruiting as an argument or any of these other points as far as that goes. I have brought them up before when people claim it does not happen when if fact I knoe some of it does. But like Charka said just because one school did it does not mean all do it. I agree, but it has happened in the past with at least one school. Once again let me state, I am not using recruiting as an argument in this discussion. I have no proof of it happening anywhere. PERIOD!

Chakra you did it again. I never tried to imply ALL private schools do this. You asked for proof that this type thing happens and I gave it to you. You can choose to believe this type of thing happens or not but I know for a fact that it did at one time. Despite what you may think, I am not on an Ezell witch hunt. You seem to think I try to pin everything on Ezell and that is just not the case. The school I made reference to is NOT Ezell! How's that. Some of the player that went to the private school that year(6 in all) have been on this thread before. I think some of them would tell you that they went there for athletic reasons not academic ones. One of them's private school education landed them a job at the KFC as an assistant manager.(once again no names will be provided) It's over and done but for people to get on here on their high horse and proclaim EVERY school is sqeaky clean is not a fact!!! And that their school produces only the finest of citizens is also a stretch. BTW, I was not comparing murder to basketball, that would be dumb. I was saying there does not have to be a smoking gun or a conviction for there tohave been a crime or violation committed.

Lewis Co. is looking for games on Mar. 24th and 25th and aslo on April 29th. Possible home and away games with a school.

Steve I tend to agree with you a little on the time thing. But we will have 2 more years before anything will actually take place. If the dominance continues until then, will that be long enough? I have always said it is not just the private schools that are winning the whole ball of wax that has brought on this debate, it is the way private schools are basiclly taking the majority of spots in state tournament brackets in virtually all sports. Do you see anything in the futrue that would make you think that the privates domination in sports is going to change? I only see that it will get worse. I hate to keep using this example becasue many think I pick on or am jealous of them but look at Ezell's softball program. Once they became known as a powerhouse in softball can anyone dispute that they were an attraction for all the top talent in the metro area? Their dominace over the last 15 years unmatched by anyone. And when they do get unthroned, guess what, it was by another private school. Dingo You said it is not zones it is just the fact that urban schools will always have that 1 or 2 players. I have to disagree. Most schools have those 1 or 2 players, it's those 1 or 2 others that the private schools can get from anywhere. And although most private school students may be enrolled there since Jr. High, there always seems to be those 1 or 2 guys who come in as Jrs. or Sophs. that keeps a team on top [Edited by imasoftballer on 11-26-02 9:17A] [Edited by imasoftballer on 11-26-02 10:01A]

Do you read any of my post and if you do, do you read them and then forget what I have said in them? No, this one kid or incident does not make the system unfair. It is wrong and illegal for the school to do that period! I have stated many, many, many times what I think makes the system flawed. You made a statement, I showed you otherwise and you refuse to believe what you have been told. Your stand that if the TSSAA has not got them then there is no crime is bull crap!!! Just because a murderer may not be caught does not mean there was not a person killed!!!

What you said at the end is not true. And I have posted this before. I know for a fact of one kid who attended a nearby private school who could not afford to buy a candy bar, much less pay for the tuition to that school. I know for a fact that the local churches here were solicited to help pay for this kids tuition. Now, do I know who paid the tuition? NO. Do I care? NO. Am I going to mention the kids name? NO. The school I have said before and am tired of repeating myself. Guess what, the kid was the star basketball player for their team and they went on the state finals while he was there.

The Keltner's did not cut ODB, ODB makes all the calls.He tells Kelt when he can come in and when he sits out. Just like in basketball!

How does anyone know what talent is walking the halls? Sure there may be some huge linemen types not playing. But do they have the dedication and desire to play a teams sport? Sure there may be some fast guys walking around also but does that make them talented or are they just fast? Does a guy on your team who does not really want to be there, talented or not, help your team or hender it?