big red big blue

I agree with you...to give credit where it is due, RC, after seeing the overwhelming numbers in favor of a split the first time around, put in place a "cooling off period," disseminated more information, posed the question differently, and got a different outcome the second time around. And that led to the BOC voting against the split (albeit by 1 vote). The process was actually careful and deliberate this time. My question to coach T is: why couldn't he have done that back in 1997? Why did he let 2 years of results (1995 and 1996) out of almost 100 completely drive the decision making process? Far fewer people were affected back than the more recent debate regarding non-financial aid privates. Why couldn't RC have implemented a "cooling off" period and presented the facts that clearly show financial aid schools, prior to DII in 1997, weren't winning titles in such a way to justify banishing them to DII?

Clearly there is a difference between "52% of all schools polled" not voting for a split (I'm going to assume that no privates of the 368 polled in the data you are citing actually voted for the split), and "62% of publics (privates not included) voted for a split." maybe the vote wasn't as decisive as it was in the original poll, when only two options were given, but still, the data shows that a majority of public schools favored the split the second time around.

here is another story: link "TSSAA member schools originally voted overwhelmingly -- 205-81 -- in favor of the split. After receiving information from the association on all the things the proposal would entail, as well as other fixes, a second vote was taken, with 62 percent of the state's public schools still favoring a split." and another: link2 "In Tennessee the separation issue appears far from settled. In late 2003 the public schools voted solidly to make the split complete, consigning all private schools to the same division whether they give financial aid or not. But a leadership group, the TSSAA's legislative council, voted 5-4 to keep things the way they are."

check these quotes: The latest push for additional reform began with Collinwood's proposal and last November's vote. Although 71.6 percent of those voting favored a split, including West Tennessee (49-29), the TSSAA said only 286 of its 368 members voted, or 77.7 percent. The proposal asked TSSAA's 368 member schools if they were in favor of totally separating all public and private high schools in athletic competition. If approved, such a split would start in the 2005-06 school year. Luker soon discovered he wasn't alone in his frustration. An administrator from each TSSAA member school, both private and public, had an opportunity to cast a vote last November at regional meetings. The results were 205-81 in favor of a split, triggering a fire storm that has raged for a year. here is the link: link

because, as Itzme wrote, pure democracy can't work when those with a numerical advantage have incentive to propose and adopt rules (like DII) to the detriment of those in the minority. What his position has needed for years is a strong leader who has the fortitude not just to bend to the will of those with the numbers, but to propose thoughtful, and just (if not popular) solutions. He has said many times that he was opposed to the formation of DII all along. Well, then why didn't he exercise some leadership and propose some sort of "cooling off period" during which the issues could be studied? Maybe everything would have reverted to the normal condition following those two years...but we got a knee-jerk reaction that upset decades of tradition in one swift action, without any real basis other than "that's what a bunch of people are asking for."

I think it will mean a complete public and private split, two separate governing organizations, and complete chaos in the state. And I think that is a very likely outcome, given how contentuous this debate has become. I do think there is a great opportunity for middle-ground compromises--like a system in which all schools play local, inter-public-private, regular season schedules and separate post-seasons--but there has to be the political will for that to happen, and I don't see anyone wanting to do anything to help the private schools. Not when a school like mine could only fill out a regular season football schedule by playing (in addition to teams from Memphis and Chattanooga) teams from all over the southeast. If the TSSAA collapses, it will be up to the majority leadership (publics) of a new organization to determine what is more valuable: satisfying the will of the majority (e.g., the overwhelming vote against the multiplier and for complete separation 2 years ago) or alienating the privates to the point that they just leave altogether and form their own league without any sort of accountabliity to their organization. Everyone will lose in that situation, so I'm hopefully that when the disastrous reign of Ronnie Carter is over his successors have more foresight and wisdom than he did.

very well said all around. Maybe BA "won the battle and lost the war" but that is better than losing the battle and losing the war, which is what would have happened had BA just meekly accepted the penalty that RC handed down and been banished (along w/ the rest of us) to DII. I think at some point we on the private side need to evaluate whether we are better off in this organization, with its current leadership and complete disregard for our needs, or some other organization, in which our resources are used solely to further our own ends. It seems clear to me that the events set in motion by RC and those whose bidding he was doing in 1997 has made the debate so contentious that no real reconciliation or compromise is possible. Most of all, there was never any real effort to study the "problem" of BA winning 5A titles in '95 and '96. Only a spirited campaign to "get BA" and "kick the private schools out." As I've written before, that's the extent of the wisdom and problem-solving ability we have here in TN at the TSSAA. Makes me admire all the more the HS sports authorities in other states that really invested time and energy into coming up with a reasonable proposals that serve all sides well. States like KY with a far, far, far more convincing history of private schools winning titles than we have...

I would be pretty shocked if CJR left MBA for a college job at this point in his life. From everything I have heard, he is very content with the lifestyle of a high school coach, in terms of hours, pressure, etc. It doesn't sound like he's a "burn the midnight oil" kind of guy right now (maybe in a previous life he was) who would enjoy returning to the non-stop travel of college recruiting, all-night film sessions, 100+ hour weeks, etc. Plus, one has to wonder about Groh's security at UVA. I hope you have seen on ESPN Classic the 1978 (I think) Sugar Bowl when his Bama team beat PSU...ABC introduces the team sort of like the way it is now done on Monday Night Football. The team is standing around, and each player introduces himself. Coach R has a pretty sweet 1978 look. Something I never fail to bring up every time I see him at an alumni event...

it makes me wonder....whether we agree or disagree, the people who regularly post on this board are for the most part a pretty thoughtful bunch. Most people have well thought out opinions. I saw the thread VG posted a while back from 2002 with people talking about a merit system. Point being, I guess I'm surprised that (to my knowledge, and following some brief google searching) there has never been any mention of a merit system in any official forum TSSAA, especially if it has been such a popular topic on this board. conclusion: we should be running the TSSAA

this is great work and I appreciate your putting it together. It would be interesting to see what the reaction to this question would be on one of the main boards. The sample taken here--the 20 or so of us that routinely post here--is made up of people that already have strong opinions on the subject, one way or the other. I wonder what the rank and file TN HS fan would think? Mainly, I think the results are skewed to the private supporters because there are a disproportinate number of us posting on here. Also, it is interesting that multiplier and striaght population are by far the least popular, and that's what we have now. Pretty strong indication that no one on either side of the debate is happy with the status quo. if you do a straight tally of total first and second place votes (not weighted), merit wins over straight split only by 18-14. finally, Honestly, I have never even heard of a merit system discussed in TN. I have heard at least mention of seemingly everything else under the sun: total split, bowl system, etc., but never a merit system. Does anyone know if it has ever been proposed/discussed in any sort of official forum?

I would think the same thing about FRA (their struggling to attract students in this saturated environment and lack of resources), but while I was home over Xmas, I heard that FRA just bought a huge piece of land near the school for $6m, and is expanding the school. Can't confirm that, just something I heard from an FRA alum. Anyways, this move does come as a bit of a surprise after 2 years. Like you said, anything at MBA is a dream job for him. I hope he moves up the ranks quickly at MBA. Great football mind and great guy.

I think the A-AA may be only for bball. I saw that as well, but then came across this blurb in an article about the TSSAA split: The Illinois high school athletic association instituted a similar plan 11 years ago. The end result was a congestion of the state's most powerful private school programs at Classes 5A and 6A. Chicago's Mt. Carmel, Joliet's Catholic Academy and New Lenox's Providence Catholic have won a combined 15 state championships since 1994. Illinois has eight classifications for football. In 2002, Chicago's Conception won the 3A title, Driscoll the 4A, Providence Catholic the 5A and Mt. Carmel the 6A -- all private schools.

this was a monster, monster week for BA. Way to represent the state of Tennessee in a huge way. Of course, I can't fail to mention that this is another (probably the greatest to date) tremendous accomplishment for Tennessee DII teams against out-of-state competition...

They have a solid sports tradition, like an MBA or BA, but not the history of being a factory like DeMatha in MD or St. Anthony's in NJ. Philly is one of the great bball hotbeds--college and hs--in the country. The tourney directors really got this one right: two future UNC teammates playing against each other!! Wish this thing were on tv!

I just read the other day in your database about McCallie beating Lovett 34-0 this year. That is a tremendous win and a great scheduling job by those two schools. That game really missed my radar screen.

way to go, BA! this former Philadelphia resident is sending smack-talking emails to a lot of Episcopal alums today! Man, is there going to be some talent on the court tonight!

1. Merit 2. total split (with mandatory regional, regular season games among similar public and private schools). 3. multiplier 4. population only 5. one class

if that sort of thing is/was happening, then it's wrong, and the people doing it should be punished. If private schools are basically circumventing the regualar admissions process in the case of certain athletes, then we have no leg to stand on in this debate. If a coach tells someone, "hey you should consider applying to our school," and then the kid goes through the process the same as everyone else, then I don't see a problem. But if somewhere along the way, private schools are saying--"apply to our school--wink, wink" and then putting that application at the top of the pile, then it's wrong. financial aid is a whole separate issue. As has been posted on here many times, financial aid awards are adjudicated by an independent, 3rd party organization based exclusively on the parents' financial condition. That's it: not grades, not sports, not arts or anything else. And no one is receiving a "full scholarship;" everyone must pay some of the tuition.

to me, it would have to be a situation where individuals (not groups) are sought out specifically for specific traits, on a personal, one-on-one basis. Clearly BA's shotgunning out a letter to incoming 9th graders (I think all of them) inviting them to spring practice is not any sort of undue influence. First, they were already coming to the school. Second, it wasn't targeted to specific people (I think...please correct me if I'm wrong). I wonder how bad RC wishes he could undo his decision to go after BA for that? If on the other hand, coaches are receiving reports on pee-wee all star games, and then putting together a targeted mailing to those athletes, that's recruiting. If coaches are being told about the "five-star 6th grader," and then contacting him personally, that's recruiting. If a coach sends out a blanket letter to all participants in all pee wee leagues across town encouraging them to apply, not recruiting. A big grey area is the issue of camps. What can coaches say to kids at their camps? If they have signed up and paid the money, seems like they have indicated at least some interest in the school and should be fair game for a sales pitch. At a minimum, I would think they should be able to say to everyone there, "consider applying to our school" But maybe not be able to single out individual "stars" and say "you should apply." It is always interesting to me that this is only an issue with regards to athletics. I doubt anyone would fault private schools for targeting pre-screened students on the basis of grades, class rank, or whatever "aptitude test" scores are out there now. Or non academic things: like forensics or fine arts.

agree, agree, agree..... none of us could complain about a system like this...if private schools still won a disproportionate # of games, playing against the largest and most resourceful publics, then there would be no argument against a full public-private split.

I'd say there are many sides to this coin. First, I'd say the hurdles for getting a kid into a public school to which he isn't zoned are much lower than those for getting into a private school. If a family is really motivated for their kid to get the best football experience possible, and they determine that the two options for doing so are either sending their kid to MBA or Riverdale, what must they do in either case? For MBA, it's apply to the school, take the admissions test, interview with the school, have your financial aid package adjudicated, determine if you can in fact afford to pay your remaining portion, figure out a way to get the kid to and from school (no bussing), etc. In the case of Riverdale, it's buy a house in the part of murfreesboro zoned for Riverdale. At that point, by law you have to attend Riverdale HS, and the government has to make sure you are going. But, more to answer your question, I think the answer is yes, all public schools should be able to advertise. In some regards, they do. If I go to buy a house somewhere, at the top of the fact sheet is a list of the public schools you will be zoned to, complete with all the relevant facts (student-teacher ratio, etc.) Never have I seen things like "Proximate Private Schools--tuition, selectivity, etc." Probably some areas, like Williamson County, don't need to adevertise, as plenty of people are moving there and they aren't having trouble filling their schools. But if a place like metro Nashville ever gets their stuff together, and has some great performing schools, then it would make sense for them to advertise. They are the ones who have suffered more than anyone from people sending their kids to private schools....like I said, went to grad school with a guy who took a job with Dell in Nashville...he was shocked when people told him to negotiate as part of his relocation package private school tuition for his kids (who are toddlers). So if these schools are ever in a position to counter this reputation they have with facts (college placement, SAT scores, etc.) they should be able to do it.

I can't imagine that if there is a complete split that smaller public schools won't follow the precedent of the larger public schools and quit playing the private schools altogether. after all, what's the point? There's really very little for the publics to gain, and if they lose, it will just reinforce their beliefs that the playing field is unlevel. I'd imagine that if the split happens, there will be a few hold-overs that play the privates for a couple of years, but after a while they will quit doing it. At that point, it will be up to the private schools to determine if their interests are best served by staying in the TSSAA or by forming their own organization. I think it's much easier said than done for the privates to leave the TSSAA and form a separate organization. I don't really even know how the economics work and if there is enough upside outside the TSSAA to justify leaving it. How is the TSSAA funded? Is it through gate receipts only? Are there dues also? Are they getting any kind of government money?

This is precisely the question I have been asking ever since I started posting on these boards. Statistically, there is far, far less evidence that supports sustained private school domination over publics than there is evidence of a handful of public schools dominating their public school peers. It really ought to be a far greater cause for concern when there are this disparate results for teams that supposedly operate under identical conditions

I think you are making some good points, but you are wildly overstating the concept of recruiting...First, coaches are not out looking for speed, or looking for size. Next, anyone, athlete or not, is subject to the same admissions process. The schools have to screen every applicant for possibility for future success: academic, social, etc....it isn't like college football where they just say "as long as you can stay eligible, you're admissible" and don't care at all whether they graduate or not. Once they are in school, they have to stay in school. One of the best athletes to come thru MBA while I was there was forced to leave for academic reasons after 8th grade. He then went to a public school and competed against us for 4 years in 3 sports. I agree that the culture has changed a lot WRT sports and their role in the school. You mentioned Ensworth. I think they hired 3 or 4 football coaches before they hd broken ground on the facility. they are certainly smart enough to know that they aren't going to be a successful private school in this town without successful athletics.

I think he's right in saying that the multiplier was put in place to engineer results rather than to level a playing field. The playing field is unlevel all over the state at every classification, public and private. Yet it is the privates who constantly have to defend themselves against "unfair advantages." I've said it a million times: McGavock: 30+ years of football, 2000 kids, one play-off win in the history of the school. Ravenwood: 4 years existence, 3 years varsity football, 1 5A title.