who get the RBI or where does it go?

[Vultor]

that is the play I saw, sorta

 

outfielder dropped the ball, runner was forced out at second base to end the inning - but - according to some arcane rule somewhere - the batter WAS

rewarded with a sacrifice fly.  They put the rule up on the screen as they read it.

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Thats a weird one but since the batter got on base due to an error, the team benefits from another runner so the ab counts and the rbi is awarded. I don't like the double play rule. The infielder made the choice to go for the double play instead of stopping the lead runner.

[tnknights]

According to the rules of MLB (Official Scorer Section 10.09e) a run does have to score for the caught fly ball or dropped fly ball to be a sacrifice fly.  Towards the end of this sectioin, there is a reference concerning a runner being forced because the batter becomes a runner on the dropped ball, but in my opinion there has to be a run scored for the play to be scored a sacrifice fly.  I know that some people also scored a sac. fly if you advance a runner to the next base, i.e., 2nd or 3rd.  I believe this is incorrect also.

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That is correct : a sacrifice FLY is a caught ball in which a runner scores. BUT (isn't there always an exception?) if the right fielder muffs the ball, it can still be scored a SacFly. That is a judgement call by the scorer. You have to decide if the runner would have scored anyway. Always give the benefit of the doubt to the batter.

 

On SacFly, a run must always score. Never just a base runner advancing. The NOTE: after 10.09 (e2) is saying that the error that occured in rule 10.09(e2) does not take away the Sac, even though the batter reached base on an error and another runner was thrown out, while the run was scored. This is one of the most mis-scored plays ever.

[tnknights]

A great book on rules is The Official Rules of Baseball by David Nemec. It isn't the old "Rule 7. what ever says that when the runner....." kind of book. He explains why certain rules were created. Like why the ball has to go past the corner bases to be fair.

 

Jim Booth also has a great book that can be used to train umpires. He also has a forum at eteamz as well.

[davidlimbaugh]

That is correct : a sacrifice FLY is a caught ball in which a runner scores. BUT (isn't there always an exception?) if the right fielder muffs the ball, it can still be scored a SacFly. That is a judgement call by the scorer. You have to decide if the runner would have scored anyway. Always give the benefit of the doubt to the batter.

 

On SacFly, a run must always score. Never just a base runner advancing. The NOTE: after 10.09 (e2) is saying that the error that occured in rule 10.09(e2) does not take away the Sac, even though the batter reached base on an error and another runner was thrown out, while the run was scored. This is one of the most mis-scored plays ever.

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The example on Baseball Tonight a few weeks ago didn't have the runner scoring. This is what I have never heard of and wish I had TIVO'ed it to get the ruling #, but the batter was awarded a sacrifice fly, i.e. no at bat, but no RBI was scored because the runner's score didn't count because the runner on first was forced out at second to end the inning....

[PageMan]

Ok, here is the rule - illegally copied from MLB

 

SACRIFICES

10.09

(a) Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the batter advances one or more runners with a bunt and is put out at first base, or would have been put out except for a fielding error. ( Score a sacrifice bunt when, before two are out, the fielders handle a bunted ball without error in an unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceding runner advancing one base. EXCEPTION: When an attempt to turn a bunt into a putout of a preceding runner fails, and in the scorer's judgment perfect play would not have put out the batter at first base, the batter shall be credited with a one base hit and not a sacrifice. © Do not score a sacrifice bunt when any runner is put out attempting to advance one base on a bunt. Charge the batter with a time at bat. (d) Do not score a sacrifice bunt when, in the judgment of the scorer, the batter is bunting primarily for a base hit and not for the purpose of advancing a runner or runners. Charge the batter with a time at bat. NOTE: In applying the above rule, always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. (e) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a fly ball or a line drive handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield which (1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or (2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer's judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught. NOTE: Score a sacrifice fly in accordance with 10.09 (e) (2) even though another runner is forced out by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Edited May 20, 2005 by PageMan

[keyplayer]

Most scorers put "team RBI" to the runs that score on dp's and etc. that individuals' dont get credit for!!

[CHHS72]

There is no such thing as a team RBI. I would always choose a double play over attempting to get the lead runner at home. That is why the batter does not get an RBI when a run scores on a double play.

 

There is no way a sac fly can be credited on a play in which the last out in the inning is recorded. Therefore, a run must score for a sac fly to be recorded. No sac fly without an RBI.

[PageMan]

I agree, CHHS72. I have never heard of a team RBI, but I guess I'm not "most scorers". I guess this concept comes from the basketball "team rebound" where no one actually gets a rebound, but the scoring programs require a rebound on any missed shot. I could copy and paste the MLB rule on RBI's, but I think we've beat the dead horse long enough.

[branman05]

Therefore, a run must score for a sac fly to be recorded.  No sac fly without an RBI.

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.. bumping a real old post..

 

the way the ruling is written this seems correct.. but i dont like it.. EXAMPLE: zero outs a deep fly moves runner from 2nd to 3rd... next batter long fly to score runner.. why did the first batter not get a sac? He "sacrificied" his out to help the team, it moved the runner into a place that allowed a run... if he had struck out no run scores..

 

 

but if he had bunted the runner to 3rd its a sac? whats the difference, he moved the runner over...

Edited May 31, 2005 by branman05

[Opperman]

.. bumping a real old post..

 

the way the ruling is written this seems correct.. but i dont like it.. EXAMPLE: zero outs a deep fly moves runner from 2nd to 3rd... next batter long fly to score runner.. why did the first batter not get a sac? He "sacrificied" his out to help the team, it moved the runner into a place that allowed a run... if he had struck out no run scores..

but if he had bunted the runner to 3rd its a sac? whats the difference, he moved the runner over...

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The rules specify that a sacrifice fly is only to be awarded when a run scores. I don't really know why they made that part of it, but that's one of many dumb things in the official scoring rules. The dumbest is that you can't give an error for a mental mistake. One of the championship games Friday, I don't remember which one, the first baseman didn't go cover first on a dropped third strike until way too late, the catcher's rushed throw when he finally decided to cover the bag pulled him, and the error had to go to the catcher for throwing a little wild, even though the first baseman caused the problem by not going over to the bag.

[unakafan07]

Hey opperman...

 

quick question since from what I've read you've done official scoring.. do you know of any decent software to score on? would prefer freeware or something cheap right now im trying to keep a book then dump hits doubles walks k's etc into a spreadsheet to calculate ba's slugging.. etc.. would love to just key it into some bookeeping software.. and have that spit out my stats... (course then i gotta drag my laptop with me) but that would be worth the trouble..

 

Thanks

[PTSportsWriter]

Hey opperman...

 

quick question since from what I've read you've done official scoring.. do you know of any decent software to score on? would prefer freeware or something cheap   right now im trying to keep a book then dump hits doubles walks k's etc into a spreadsheet to calculate ba's slugging.. etc.. would love to just key it into some bookeeping software.. and have that spit out my stats... (course then i gotta drag my laptop with me) but that would be worth the trouble..

 

Thanks

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www.fixedit.com

 

Probably the best around. New version (shareware) will allow user to upload box scores to a webserver (makes for easy printing).

 

All screens are viewable.

 

All the pay version allows for basically is printing off of pages.