Fair Play

[1ladytigerfan]

Am I right in noticing that 6 of the 8 teams in the single A state tournament are private schools? I dont think its coincidence or just luck that all the better athletes, and coaches choose private schools and they keep their enrollment down so that they can stay in the lowest divisions. However next year maybe things will even out with the multiplier and alot of the privates having to move up. Just to state a fact...its been since 1986 that a private school won the Singele A state softball tournament. A good example of the advantage the privates have is this, at the public school my daughter attends and plays softball 2 years ago the softball coach of 30 some years decides to retire. The job was given to a lady teacher with zero coaching experience because she was the only one that wanted the job and there was no teaching opening to hire a teacher/coach. So she had to get a volunteer assistant who really ends up being the head coach, however he has a full time day job and is not available to the school or the girls all the time. Private schools can hire and pay whoever they choose to coach and they dont even have to teach. And no matter what anybody says good, consistant coaching makes all the difference. I dont know the perfect solution but i think its obvious that especially in single A the public schools are at a huge disadvantage.

[1ladytigerfan]

Correction to my post....it has been since 1986 since a PUBLIC school has won the state class A tournament.

[Softball Maven]

Am I right in noticing that 6 of the 8 teams in the single A state tournament are private schools? I dont think its coincidence or just luck that all the better athletes, and coaches choose private schools and they keep their enrollment down so that they can stay in the lowest divisions. However next year maybe things will even out with the multiplier and alot of the privates having to move up. Just to state a fact...its been since 1986 that a private school won the Singele A state softball tournament. A good example of the advantage the privates have is this, at the public school my daughter attends and plays softball 2 years ago the softball coach of 30 some years decides to retire. The job was given to a lady teacher with zero coaching experience because she was the only one that wanted the job and there was no teaching opening to hire a teacher/coach. So she had to get a volunteer assistant who really ends up being the head coach, however he has a full time day job and is not available to the school or the girls all the time. Private schools can hire and pay whoever they choose to coach and they dont even have to teach. And no matter what anybody says good, consistant coaching makes all the difference. I dont know the perfect solution but i think its obvious that especially in single A the public schools are at a huge disadvantage.

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I must disagree with you on this ladytigerfan reading the thread as you presented it. I will, however, agree with you if you narrow the comparison from "private schools, especially in single A" to "private schools in division ll". I know for a fact at the school I am associated with and also know from friendships with people at other small private schools that your statements about the coaches, hiring practices, teaching requirements, etc. is incorrect. At the smaller private schools which is at the center of this discussion, the head coach must be a full time teacher at the school. At our school the head coach is a full time teacher and the two assistants are both 'no pay volunteers'. Now this is in softball. In baseball the head and assistant coaches are both teachers at the school. In volleyball the head coach is a teacher at the school. In basketball, both head coaches are teachers at the school with each having an assistant coach that is a teacher and each having a "no pay volunteer". In football, the head coach is an administrator with 1 assistant being a teacher and 5 'no pay volunteers'. We can't afford to hire "whoever we want". We work with what we have. And one reason this is done is not only to maintain the integrity of the system but to try and maintain costs so people that want to provide their children with a christian education can do it. My son has been going there 8 years now and we didn't start going because of the sports program. When we started the football team was the door mat of the region, basketball had 3 successful years but was down again and the baseball and softball team had had short successes and we didn't even have a volleyball team. So to classify all private schools in the manner that is being presented in this topic is unfair at best and illustrates how many will jump on a band wagon without knowing and even trying to find out the facts.

[1ladytigerfan]

Still cant argue the point that the private schools have dominated single A for 20 years. I am not jumping on any band wagon I just stated the facts about public school and if the private school you are related to is that small you will continue to compete in the division where you belong but these larger will move up to face more compitition.

[Baldcoach]

I think there should be a seperate division for all private schools.  Especially those giving athletic scholarships to attend. (Division II)  It shouldn't matter what division that they compete with either (A, AA, or AAA).  All private schools should be moved to Division II and then use there own A, AA, or AAA classifaction.  It is hard for some AAA schools to field enough players for a team.  Why do you think private colleges participate in the NAIA and not the NCAA?  Granted they are usually smaller, but private funded and government funded should always stay seperate.  Private HS have a huge advantage over public HC.  The state tournament bracket should show anyone that.

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Most private colleges compete in the NCAA. Perhaps you have heard of a few of them...Notre Dame, Vanderbuilt, Stanford, all the Ivy League Schools, etc. The NAIA was for small private colleges that felt they could not compete with NCAA schools or that wanted to give athletic scholarships but would have had to be DivIII in the NCAA. Many NAIA schools have switched to the NCAA in recent years.

 

So your funded argument is misinformed. Seperate but equal...seems like I have heard that before...nah, surely not.

[1ladytigerfan]

That may be true about college but that is not what we are talking about. All colleges also give scholarships and recruit players. All public schools do not, some private schools do and some dont. College has nothing to do with this argument. Public schools outnumber private schools in the state 3or 4 to 1, yet every year private schools dominate state tounaments, thats not coincendence or luck that the best athletes and coaches just happen to go to those schools. I know for a fact two athletes from the small town that i live in that were given scholarships to play baseball at Webb. They live less than a mile from the high school that my child attends but somebody else is paying for them to go there to play a sport. I know another child that is being "sponsered" by another parent at a local christian academy to go there and play a sport because thier parents could not afford to send this child to that school, now if thats not recruiting or scholarship what would you call that? And how are the public schools suppose to compete? They get close alot but it always comes down private schools. Almost 20 years have passed since a public school has won a single A softball title, Coincendence/Luck?? I dont think so.

[#12fan]

I guess I'll just have to "jump on the bandwagon" so to speak. Private schools do dominate Class A softball & have for years because of one thing. MONEY! It's a common quote among Class A softball coaches at public schools that all you have to do to even get to the state tournament is "beat the best teams money can buy." Forget about winning the state tournament. The salaries that private schools can pay their coaches/teachers is one of the differences. Now lets talk about the private instruction that is paid for, the best equipment that is purchased, the great facilities, and so on. For anyone that really believes that private schools have the best programs year in & year out by coincidence, I've got some great ocean front property in Colorado I'd love to sell!!!

[rollredroll]

What do the coaches of these small public schools say to their teams before matchups with private schools? "You don't have a chance but go out and play hard anyway"? Just wondering if the same defeatist attitude that is prevalent on the message boards after the fact is the same as the attitude going into games before the fact.

 

Sun Tzu said that every battle is won before it is ever fought. It seems as if the public side thinks this in terms of the athletes on the other side. One can't help but wonder how much this defeatist mentality plays a role in the outcome. While talent is a factor, private schools may have another advantage in the fact that their players believe that their opponents don't think they can beat them.

Edited May 22, 2005 by rollredroll

[Baldcoach]

Still cant argue the point that the private schools have dominated single A for 20 years. I am not jumping on any band wagon I just stated the facts about public school and if the private school you are related to is that small you will continue to compete in the division where you belong but these larger will move up to face more compitition.

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I'll argue that point. In fact it is completely false. Pick any 3 sports and let's look at the last 20 years...I believe that what you will see is that a few private schools have gotten very good in the last 10 years or so...but that if we look back over 20 the public schools come out just fine.

 

p.s. Just to second Softball Maven (I don't know who she is but I do know the school hehe) there are no head coaches in any small private that I know of who are 'just coaches'. All are full time employees and HAVE to be hired for their subject knowledge. The small privates simply can't afford to pay someone who isn't carrying their academic weight.

 

pp.s. Just FYI, the average teacher/coach at a small private teaches more periods than the average public school coach, has a lower base salary, and makes less in stipends. In 1997 when I left teaching I had 7 years of experience, taught BiologyII, Physical Science, and AP Chemistry, had 1 planning period (out of 7) and coached Football and Baseball. I made right at 30k with all my stipends included. One of my buddies at a small local public coached Football and Baseball, taught 4 math classes (out of 7 periods) and made about 30% more than I did. So the idea that a small private can afford better coaches is ludicrous...they actually pay less.

[Baldcoach]

That may be true about college but that is not what we are talking about. All colleges also give scholarships and recruit players. All public schools do not, some private schools do and some dont. College has nothing to do with this argument. Public schools outnumber private schools in the state 3or 4 to 1, yet every year private schools dominate state tounaments, thats not coincendence or luck that the best athletes and coaches just happen to go to those schools. I know for a fact two athletes from the small town that i live in that were given scholarships to play baseball at Webb. They live less than a mile from the high school that my child attends but somebody else is paying for them to go there to play a sport. I know another child that is being "sponsered" by another parent at a local christian academy to go there and play a sport because thier parents could not afford to send this child to that school, now if thats not recruiting or scholarship what would you call that? And how are the public schools suppose to compete? They get close alot but it always comes down private schools. Almost 20 years have passed since a public school has won a single A softball title, Coincendence/Luck?? I dont think so.

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Webb is DII? If so they can offer financial aid and will not be in the same tournament as you. If not then report them. As for a parent of one child paying for another child's school, I suppose you would never help out any of your friends' children if they needed some help? The only valid thing you posted was the last sentence. It certainly isn't coincidence or luck. Could it be that in the big cities where the education system is the most broken that parents send their daughters into a safer environment more than they send their sons? I dunno...sounds worth looking into. But then that wouldn't be recruiting, it would be caused by our failing system.

[Baldcoach]

I guess I'll just have to "jump on the bandwagon" so to speak.  Private schools do dominate Class A softball & have for years because of one thing.  MONEY!  It's a common quote among Class A softball coaches at public schools that all you have to do to even get to the state tournament is "beat the best teams money can buy."  Forget about winning the state tournament.  The salaries that private schools can pay their coaches/teachers is one of the differences.  Now lets talk about the private instruction that is paid for, the best equipment that is purchased, the great facilities, and so on.  For anyone that really believes that private schools have the best programs year in & year out by coincidence, I've got some great ocean front property in Colorado I'd love to sell!!!

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This is untrue. The small privates pay LESS than the publics. Get your facts straight. Their teams also have smaller budgets because their money comes from a smaller source. Strike one...try another swing.

[1ladytigerfan]

7 of the 8 teams in the single A state softball tournament are private schools even though they are outnumbered by public schools 3-4 to 1. I dont think that is coincendence or luck. Maybe you are speaking just for the small private schools but this is about all of them. You comment about other sports...well this isnt about other sports either, we are in the softball forum. The parent that is sponsering another student didnt even know the family until they were approached by a softball coach that told them someone was willing to pay for them to attend school there and play softball. I think that is a little more than helping a friend out, these people didnt even know the family that was going to "sponser" their child. And no our coaches do not just give up before the fight but look who won every single A sectional except 1. There is no argument, the multiplier for next season will take care of alot of the problem and if the school you work for is so small then they will stay in single A and compete with the appropriate teams. But the larger private schools that keep their enrollment down (with huge waiting lists), to play in single A with have to move up to the next division or choose to play in Division II.