Every key stroke must have been made

[lazarus]

"According to the courts, BA did not break any rules."

 

it was kind of numbing to read thru.

but it sounded more like the decision was that the rules were no good,

not whether or not BA broke them.

[tnsddeveloper]

"According to the courts, BA did not break any rules."

 

it was kind of numbing to read thru.

but it sounded more like the decision was that the rules were no good,

not whether or not BA broke them.

It was a difficult read for someone like me. You are right when you consider why the lawsuit was filed by BA. It really wasn't about whether or not they broke the rules, but whether or not the rules are valid. If the rules are invalid, then is there a violation. The courts agree (so far) with that viewpoint. We will see if the TSSAA can stomach throwing more money at this.

[lazarus]

"While a merit system certainly looks good (in theory) there are huge holes in it"

 

while it would be a radical change, i hardly see huge holes.

probably the biggest hurdle i see would be basketball,

(i dont know of any baseball/softball teams that play the same schedules)

and even that is far from insurmountable.

i dont see it being that difficult to schedule home nights and away nights.

we'd just play different opponents on home nights, and travel different places on away nights.

certainly that would increase travel costs, but i suspect both boys and girls teams would benefit from selecting their own schedules.

 

in some sports (track & field and wrestling come to mind) classifications really dont serve a purpose. i will save you a lengthy dissertation and just say that in these sports small schools have a BETTER chance of winning in combined championships.

 

some points that i think would be important in developing a workable system:

 

1) periodic total reclassification, rather than bumping certain teams.

this to avoid the situation of pushing people out of their competitive level.

 

2) sound basis for classification.

going only by records is far too dependent on who you play.

going by playoff results is simply too small a sample.

football and basketball seem to have some solid computer rankings that would serve the purpose.

i have no idea about baseball and the minor sports.

 

3) an appeal process.

this to prevent misclassifications when the classifying record was dependent on factors that no longer apply.

 

4) periodization for reclassification.

it would be a mess as an annual event, but it would need to be done often enough to keep the classes somewhat in line. i lean towards 3 years.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

a couple of other questions that always seem to come up;

 

"what if the privates win all the championships at the top level?"

 

i would say a case could be made (assuming this situation occurs) for dividing the playoffs into private and public brackets up to the championship game.

then you have a "public champion" who still gets a shot at the whole thing.

(or a "private champion" if the suituation is reversed)

 

"what if we have all new opponents when districts/regions redraw"

 

well, if that hasnt happened to you already, count yourself lucky.

even in the current system, schools have been tossed in with all or nearly all new opponents at a reclass.

it has happened to us, and it isnt the end of the world (altho at times it seems that is where the new opponents are located).

as has been mentioned, in all probability not that many schools will actually be affected. there is a good chance reclass will be no more disruptive than it is now.

i think we'd need to run some trials on available data to say for sure.

 

 

just a few thoughts, now i better get back to work or i will be here till midnight!

[VolunteerGeneral]

In a merit system it woulsn`t really matter if your girls and boys basketball teams were in different levels. You really wouldn`t have a need for districts or regions if you didn`t want them. Your rankings would be determined by your won/loss record and the strength of your competition.

[Antwan]

In a merit system it woulsn`t really matter if your girls and boys basketball teams were in different levels. You really wouldn`t have a need for districts or regions if you didn`t want them. Your rankings would be determined by your won/loss record and the strength of your competition.

 

Most boys and girls basketball teams travel together. It would matter quite a bit for financially strapped schools.

[tnsddeveloper]

Most boys and girls basketball teams travel together. It would matter quite a bit for financially strapped schools.

The operation of a second bus is that expensive?

[yellowdog]

The operation of a second bus is that expensive?

 

You obviously don't understand the fabric of high school sports. Tuesday/Friday night basketball games between local schools with both boys and girls games playing is more than just a contest between schools. It is a place where local citizens, former players and parents of players gather for a community get-together. Many parents have both girls and boys playing on the same night, or a player on the girls team is the niece of a parent who has a boy playing on the boys team.

 

I can assure you, that if you had a daughter and son playing on a high school team you would be very upset that the girls played somewhere different than the boys - because of some controversial merit system that only affected a hand full of schools.

 

What about schools cheerleaders? Where would they cheer? Would you have different squads for the boys and girls?

 

And yes, transportation costs are huge for any school system. I would suspect if a merit system was even considered, there would be an outcry of dissention from school systems.

 

Supporters of a merit system are living in a fantasy world of expectations. Theory is good, but reality would trump the effort from getting off the ground. People who make decisions about classification have to consider more than the competition side of it.

 

Go to your local school principal and ask them what they think about splitting teams on Tuesday/Friday night and see what kind of response you would get.

 

Merit system is a bad idea.

[tnsddeveloper]

You obviously don't understand the fabric of high school sports. Tuesday/Friday night basketball games between local schools with both boys and girls games playing is more than just a contest between schools. It is a place where local citizens, former players and parents of players gather for a community get-together. Many parents have both girls and boys playing on the same night, or a player on the girls team is the niece of a parent who has a boy playing on the boys team.

No, I understand. I played high school basketball. I have siblings that did too. Maybe it is time for this sport to join all the others. I don't remember girls volleyball teams traveling with the football teams in high school.

 

I can assure you, that if you had a daughter and son playing on a high school team you would be very upset that the girls played somewhere different than the boys - because of some controversial merit system that only affected a hand full of schools.

And the teams can play home games on the same night and away games on different nights. That doesn't seem like too hard of a concept.

 

What about schools cheerleaders? Where would they cheer? Would you have different squads for the boys and girls?

Sure, why not have 2 squads for more to participate.

 

Supporters of a merit system are living in a fantasy world of expectations. Theory is good, but reality would trump the effort from getting off the ground. People who make decisions about classification have to consider more than the competition side of it.

 

Go to your local school principal and ask them what they think about splitting teams on Tuesday/Friday night and see what kind of response you would get.

 

Merit system is a bad idea.

The only people living in a fantasy world are the ones that think a public/private split is going to happen or even the current situation is going to live on. The courts have ruled. The Supreme Court has even ruled. Folks, it is time to get creative ... otherwise, the TSSAA is going to bankrupt high school athletics in Tennessee.

[yellowdog]

The Supreme Court has even ruled. Folks, it is time to get creative ... otherwise, the TSSAA is going to bankrupt high school athletics in Tennessee.

 

 

I don't know how we got from merit system to private/public - but the private schools that think that the "state actor" thing will give them the right to play public schools in state championship competition are getting some bad information.

 

The reason the TSSAA is a state-actor is because their board of control and legislative council are school employees. If your local Lions Club or Rotary Club's boards were all school officials then they too would be state actors.

 

If TSSAA closes down and and association of only public schools starts up with a Board and Legislative Council not made up of school officials they will not be a state actor. If Brentwood Academy wants to join in they will have to go to District/Regional and the Supreme Court all again to let them make a decision about expanding the state-actor definition.

 

Private schools (mainly Brentwood Academy) want their cake and eat it too -- They want to recruit, play by their own rules, be allowed to compete against public schools for state championships. But, public schools have to follow all federal rules on due-process, and private schools don't. That will be the next judicial battlefield.

 

The reality is very simple -- if a private school wants to dominate a sport they can do so by putting empahsis on that sport. The vast majority of private schools have good relationships with public schools -- but a handful ruin it for everyone.

[tnsddeveloper]

I don't know how we got from merit system to private/public - but the private schools that think that the "state actor" thing will give them the right to play public schools in state championship competition are getting some bad information.

 

The reason the TSSAA is a state-actor is because their board of control and legislative council are school employees. If your local Lions Club or Rotary Club's boards were all school officials then they too would be state actors.

 

If TSSAA closes down and and association of only public schools starts up with a Board and Legislative Council not made up of school officials they will not be a state actor. If Brentwood Academy wants to join in they will have to go to District/Regional and the Supreme Court all again to let them make a decision about expanding the state-actor definition.

Hello misinformed. It has nothing to do with school administrators being on the board and legislative council. It has to do with the "organization" being organized and run on behalf of the schools. If you think that is going to have the organization ruled not a state agent ... then you really, really have your head in the sand. Anyone appointed to act on behalf of public school systems ... will be a state actor.

 

Private schools (mainly Brentwood Academy) want their cake and eat it too -- They want to recruit, play by their own rules, be allowed to compete against public schools for state championships. But, public schools have to follow all federal rules on due-process, and private schools don't. That will be the next judicial battlefield.

Wow. Really. Due process. Hello mister I used this phrase out of context. Aren't these the same public schools that were trying to stop BA's "due process" - or better yet their right to free speech. How about coming up with a system that works with rules that work? They obviously aren't now ... no sense on complaining about it ... it's time to get creative and come up with a system that works for everyone.

 

The reality is very simple -- if a private school wants to dominate a sport they can do so by putting empahsis on that sport.

Funny thing was ... I was thinking about this in regards to lots of publics. Let's see ... Shelbyville girls b-ball, Riverdale, Maryville, Alcoa, Memphis basketball, Magnet Schools ... and on and on.

 

This is not a private issue. It is an everyone issue. We need a system that works and evens the playing field for everyone.

Edited March 25, 2006 by tnsddeveloper

[VolunteerGeneral]

yellowdog...I think you are wrong about your interpretation of state actor.

[yellowdog]

yellowdog...I think you are wrong about your interpretation of state actor.

 

Read the dissenting statements on the Supreme Court decision.