New State Tournament Formats

[BayouBear]

Several years ago, I questioned a TSSAA official about the fairness of the Individual Wrestling Tournament bracket system. I was told there were reasons for the system. I asked about the reasons and did not receive an answer. After studying the current system as well as the old 8 Region format, I concluded the format to be as fair as possible when I placed myself in the shoes of the TSSAA. I also came to understand the TSSAA is good at determining champions but not very good when it comes to determining placewinners in wrestling due to the individuality of the sport. Wrestling is different, so it therefore requires a different format. The other sports are either team sports or you can throw everyone together and see who is the best without consideration of seeding, etc.

 

Everyone would agree (perhaps even the TSSAA) there are flaws in the manner wrestlers are placed in each bracket for the individual tournament. The addition of 2 regions made a poor system even worse. In the old 8 region setup; Region Champions and returning medalists could be separated to insure the first possible match-up of Region Champions to be in the Quarterfinals. This small detail was very important but often overlooked. When Region Champions met in the Quarters, the winner advanced to the Semi's which allowed the loser to be CARRIED into the Consolations.

 

Under the current 10 Region format, it is possible for 2 matches in the Round of 16 between Region Champions. The winner of these matches will advance to the Quarterfinals in matches likely against a Champion from another region. If the wrestler who defeated the region champion in the Round of 16 loses in the Quarterfinals, the Region Champion who was defeated in the Round of 16 will NOT BE CARRIED into the consolations because the wrestler he lost to did not advance into the Semifinals.

 

What this means is.....The Region Champion who was not allowed to advance into the consolations has no opportunity to compete for a medal even though the possibility exists that he could be the 3rd best wrestler in the weight class. Also, the current method gives limited respect to a wrestler who comes to the tournament as a Region Champion. The respect given to Region Champions comes in the form of "luck of the draw".

 

These are basic ideas for State Tournament formats (both Individual and Duals) I've had for a few years. While I'm in favor of splitting the State Tournament into Large and Small Divisions, these ideas are for a Single Division I Tournament. I have not studied the numbers to see if this same format could be used for Large / Small divisions, although, I am reasonably certain this format would work. Feel free to shoot holes in them as you see fit.

 

 

Fixing the current system.

 

An easy and quick fix would be to discontinue the practice of using the Carry Bracket format by changing to a full wrestleback bracket. However, the use of 10 regions and blind draws for "the coveted" 4th place wrestler continue to skew the bracket away from total fairness.

 

 

The New BB System

 

A new system could be implemented changing from the current 10 Regions to 16 Regions. This makes sense because it would also solve problems with the State Duals format of giving "byes" to Region Runner Ups of two regions directly into the State Duals while all other Runner Ups have to win a "playoff" match to get in.

 

The system for the Individual Tournament could be as follows;

 

A - Divide all Division I wrestling schools into 16 Regions

 

B - All 16 Regions would hold a Region Individual Tournament. The top 4 placers at each weight would advance to a Substate Tournament.

 

C - There would be 4 Substate Individual Tournaments [(1) - Regions 1 thru 4, (2) - Regions 5 thru 8, (3) - Regions 9 thru 12, (4) - Regions 13 thru 16] with 16 wrestlers in each bracket. The 4 wrestlers from each Region could be placed in different quarters of the bracket. Each quarter bracket would consist of a Region Champion, a region 2nd, a region 3rd and a Region 4th. The Champion would face a Region 4th in the first round and then the winner between a Region 2nd and a region 3rd in the Quarterfinals. This would mean the earliest meeting between Region Champions would be in the Semifinals, as well as wrestlers from the same region. The top 4 wrestlers from each weight class would advance into the State Tournament. If the event the top 4 wrestlers in a weight class were from a single region, this format would allow for them to advance into the state tournament using a full wrestleback format.

 

D - The State Tournament would be a 16 man bracket consisting of the top 4 wrestlers at each weight from the 4 Substate Tournaments. As in the Substate bracket, the 4 Substate Champions would occupy spots in each quarter bracket along with a Substate 2nd, a Substate 3rd and a Substate 4th. AND, as in the Substate Bracket, wrestlers from the same Substate would not meet until Semifinals, nor would wrestlers from the same region. If the four best wrestlers in a weight class were all from one region, this format would allow them to place 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

 

E - This format would allow the TSSAA to run the complete DI and DII tournaments in 2 days. The addition of the 4 (2 day) Substate Tournaments with TSSAA revenue sharing would mean greater net revenue to the TSSAA because each tournament could be held in a high school where there would be no charge for the use of the facility and due to the closer distance of the venues to the fans, it can be assumed the collective attendance would be greater than it would be at the first day of the current State Tournament.

 

F - This format would also drastically level the playing field to determine the eventual Team Champion. The current format allows for strong teams in weaker regions to advance more wrestlers into the state tournament. A close look at the current system shows the best 32 wrestlers at each weight do not necessarily advance into the state tournament and CERTAINLY the best 16 wrestlers are not the last 16 wrestlers alive in the state tournament. While this format would not stop a team from advancing as many wrestlers as possible into the State Tournament and by no means would this format guarantee the participation of the best 16 wrestlers at each weight, it would provide a vastly superior statistical method of insuring the best 16 wrestlers had every opportunity to reach the State Tournament. This statistical certainty would result in making sure the Team Championship was earned on wrestling ability and not due to superiority over other teams in its' region.

 

G - Seeding

 

1) The seeds for the Region Tournament would be determined by the region coaches.

2) The seeds for the Substate Tournament would be; (1) Returning State Placewinners, (2) Returning Substate Placewinners which would be the same as returning State Tournament Qualifiers

3) The seeds for the State Tournament would only be given to returning State Placewinners if they are also Substate Champions. This would limit seeds to 4 in the 16 man state bracket.

 

Head to head results would not be considered above the region tournament level. This will lend itself to seeding by assumption. In other words, the debate would rage..." If A beat B and B beat C then A deserves a higher seed than C." We all know that argument cannot be made in all cases.

 

 

The system for the State Duals Tournament could be as follows;

 

A - The Region Champion and Region Runner Up would advance to a Substate match. Region Champions would wrestle Region Runner Ups from an adjoining Region. The winners would advance to the State Duals Tournament. This match could be held on the home floor of each Region Champion on the Tuesday following the Region Duals Tournament. This would not add a weekend to the current schedule.

 

B - The format of the bracket would be as follows;

 

1) Teams are seeded as follows. 1) Returning Placewinners in order of prior year finish. 2) Returning participants (non Placewinners) placed in bracket as seeds by blind draw 3) First year participants placed in bracket by seed order by blind draw.

 

2) First round losers are eliminated from the tournament.

 

3) Quarterfinal losers go into a full wrestleback consolation bracket. Awards are given to top 6 teams.

[texas23]

wow....

 

 

I wonder if the premise of crowing a champion is achieved in the current system? I think it probably is. It is not the champion part of the system that gets the critics going, it is the place finishers who bring the conflict. The debate goes on over who should be in the finals for second and the finals for fourth, etc.

 

As I see the guys getting on the podium, the only one who truly seems happy is the guy on top, none of the others will even break a smile at their achievement. So why does an entire system need to be re-worked for the placing of wrestlers who are not happy with anything but the top spot?

 

I like what Bayou Bear has put together,,,,just a comment on the entire debate.

[BayouBear]

wow....

I wonder if the premise of crowing a champion is achieved in the current system? I think it probably is. It is not the champion part of the system that gets the critics going, it is the place finishers who bring the conflict. The debate goes on over who should be in the finals for second and the finals for fourth, etc.

 

As I see the guys getting on the podium, the only one who truly seems happy is the guy on top, none of the others will even break a smile at their achievement. So why does an entire system need to be re-worked for the placing of wrestlers who are not happy with anything but the top spot?

 

I like what Bayou Bear has put together,,,,just a comment on the entire debate.

 

Individual - It may not matter at "that" moment in time, but when they get old like me and you, it will matter.

 

Team - In the case of Bradley or Soddy, a banner that says 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th may not make it to the gym...but there are many schools that would take them without thinking twice and be happier than BC or SD.

[mhhjnh]

BayouBear,

 

I agree, when I was wrestling all I cared about is being a state champ. In fact the disappointment that set in when I lost in the quarterfinals in overtime to the eventual third place medalist might have kept me from placing. (At least it makes me feel better to tell myself that anyway). Looking back on it now. 6th place would have been terrific.

[CoachDelgado]

I disagree that the 2nd through 6th place wrestlers are not happy to be there. Of course they all want to be on top, but there can only be one. A lot of placewinners are thrilled, perhaps not on that day, that they placed in their high school tournament. The placing for this year also influences the bracket for next year. If the wrestler that everyone considers the third or fourth best kid, but ends up in a tough quarter bracket, he loses his placement posibility the next year because of not being carried. A story close to our team was a wrestler 2 years ago that put off his knee surgery until after his senior season. He didn't win the region but placed in the state. He had the resolve to compete in that event, with a bum knee, and still place. Would he have placed with double instead of carry, we will never know. That is not what will be remebered. What will be remebered is he placed in the state on Saturday with surgery scheduled the following Tuesday. It was a huge, biggie, big 'ol deal that he placed, and he was proud to be on that podium and we were proud that he made it up there.

[texas23]

Hey,,,I am not disagreeing with Bayou Bear or any of the comments. The main point I have made is this: Is the tournament for crowing a champion? Does it acheive that?

 

And secondly and less so in my opinon, how does it rank the rest of the field after that.

 

That kid from Houston, was an exception and not the rule....but it is a great story and I agree with the pride that should go along with any achievement in this sport, including qualification to just be in the darn thing.

 

Again, I like what BayouBear put together.

[soms]

Again, I like what BayouBear put together.

The question is... did he un-tie half his brain to accomplish this. I like the excitement in having a better match-up from a sub-state to the big dance. It only seems logical like having a top 8 or 12 playoff in F-ball as opposed to the present illogical BCS.

 

Very impressive format BB, but will it ever go anywhere is the real question?

[thelightsareon]

I definetly agree with a substate. It would open up the regional qualifiers and compensate for weaker and stronger regions making the state tournament more balanced. There are probably a number of kids who do not belong at state and a number who do but can't qualify out of an extremely tough region in a particular weight class.

[bear cat brown]

Several years ago, I questioned a TSSAA official about the fairness of the Individual Wrestling Tournament bracket system. I was told there were reasons for the system. I asked about the reasons and did not receive an answer. After studying the current system as well as the old 8 Region format, I concluded the format to be as fair as possible when I placed myself in the shoes of the TSSAA. I also came to understand the TSSAA is good at determining champions but not very good when it comes to determining placewinners in wrestling due to the individuality of the sport. Wrestling is different, so it therefore requires a different format. The other sports are either team sports or you can throw everyone together and see who is the best without consideration of seeding, etc.

 

Everyone would agree (perhaps even the TSSAA) there are flaws in the manner wrestlers are placed in each bracket for the individual tournament. The addition of 2 regions made a poor system even worse. In the old 8 region setup; Region Champions and returning medalists could be separated to insure the first possible match-up of Region Champions to be in the Quarterfinals. This small detail was very important but often overlooked. When Region Champions met in the Quarters, the winner advanced to the Semi's which allowed the loser to be CARRIED into the Consolations.

 

Under the current 10 Region format, it is possible for 2 matches in the Round of 16 between Region Champions. The winner of these matches will advance to the Quarterfinals in matches likely against a Champion from another region. If the wrestler who defeated the region champion in the Round of 16 loses in the Quarterfinals, the Region Champion who was defeated in the Round of 16 will NOT BE CARRIED into the consolations because the wrestler he lost to did not advance into the Semifinals.

 

What this means is.....The Region Champion who was not allowed to advance into the consolations has no opportunity to compete for a medal even though the possibility exists that he could be the 3rd best wrestler in the weight class. Also, the current method gives limited respect to a wrestler who comes to the tournament as a Region Champion. The respect given to Region Champions comes in the form of "luck of the draw".

 

These are basic ideas for State Tournament formats (both Individual and Duals) I've had for a few years. While I'm in favor of splitting the State Tournament into Large and Small Divisions, these ideas are for a Single Division I Tournament. I have not studied the numbers to see if this same format could be used for Large / Small divisions, although, I am reasonably certain this format would work. Feel free to shoot holes in them as you see fit.

Fixing the current system.

 

An easy and quick fix would be to discontinue the practice of using the Carry Bracket format by changing to a full wrestleback bracket. However, the use of 10 regions and blind draws for "the coveted" 4th place wrestler continue to skew the bracket away from total fairness.

The New BB System

 

A new system could be implemented changing from the current 10 Regions to 16 Regions. This makes sense because it would also solve problems with the State Duals format of giving "byes" to Region Runner Ups of two regions directly into the State Duals while all other Runner Ups have to win a "playoff" match to get in.

 

The system for the Individual Tournament could be as follows;

 

A - Divide all Division I wrestling schools into 16 Regions

 

B - All 16 Regions would hold a Region Individual Tournament. The top 4 placers at each weight would advance to a Substate Tournament.

 

C - There would be 4 Substate Individual Tournaments [(1) - Regions 1 thru 4, (2) - Regions 5 thru 8, (3) - Regions 9 thru 12, (4) - Regions 13 thru 16] with 16 wrestlers in each bracket. The 4 wrestlers from each Region could be placed in different quarters of the bracket. Each quarter bracket would consist of a Region Champion, a region 2nd, a region 3rd and a Region 4th. The Champion would face a Region 4th in the first round and then the winner between a Region 2nd and a region 3rd in the Quarterfinals. This would mean the earliest meeting between Region Champions would be in the Semifinals, as well as wrestlers from the same region. The top 4 wrestlers from each weight class would advance into the State Tournament. If the event the top 4 wrestlers in a weight class were from a single region, this format would allow for them to advance into the state tournament using a full wrestleback format.

 

D - The State Tournament would be a 16 man bracket consisting of the top 4 wrestlers at each weight from the 4 Substate Tournaments. As in the Substate bracket, the 4 Substate Champions would occupy spots in each quarter bracket along with a Substate 2nd, a Substate 3rd and a Substate 4th. AND, as in the Substate Bracket, wrestlers from the same Substate would not meet until Semifinals, nor would wrestlers from the same region. If the four best wrestlers in a weight class were all from one region, this format would allow them to place 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

 

E - This format would allow the TSSAA to run the complete DI and DII tournaments in 2 days. The addition of the 4 (2 day) Substate Tournaments with TSSAA revenue sharing would mean greater net revenue to the TSSAA because each tournament could be held in a high school where there would be no charge for the use of the facility and due to the closer distance of the venues to the fans, it can be assumed the collective attendance would be greater than it would be at the first day of the current State Tournament.

 

F - This format would also drastically level the playing field to determine the eventual Team Champion. The current format allows for strong teams in weaker regions to advance more wrestlers into the state tournament. A close look at the current system shows the best 32 wrestlers at each weight do not necessarily advance into the state tournament and CERTAINLY the best 16 wrestlers are not the last 16 wrestlers alive in the state tournament. While this format would not stop a team from advancing as many wrestlers as possible into the State Tournament and by no means would this format guarantee the participation of the best 16 wrestlers at each weight, it would provide a vastly superior statistical method of insuring the best 16 wrestlers had every opportunity to reach the State Tournament. This statistical certainty would result in making sure the Team Championship was earned on wrestling ability and not due to superiority over other teams in its' region.

 

G - Seeding

 

1) The seeds for the Region Tournament would be determined by the region coaches.

2) The seeds for the Substate Tournament would be; (1) Returning State Placewinners, (2) Returning Substate Placewinners which would be the same as returning State Tournament Qualifiers

3) The seeds for the State Tournament would only be given to returning State Placewinners if they are also Substate Champions. This would limit seeds to 4 in the 16 man state bracket.

 

Head to head results would not be considered above the region tournament level. This will lend itself to seeding by assumption. In other words, the debate would rage..." If A beat B and B beat C then A deserves a higher seed than C." We all know that argument cannot be made in all cases.

The system for the State Duals Tournament could be as follows;

 

A - The Region Champion and Region Runner Up would advance to a Substate match. Region Champions would wrestle Region Runner Ups from an adjoining Region. The winners would advance to the State Duals Tournament. This match could be held on the home floor of each Region Champion on the Tuesday following the Region Duals Tournament. This would not add a weekend to the current schedule.

 

B - The format of the bracket would be as follows;

 

1) Teams are seeded as follows. 1) Returning Placewinners in order of prior year finish. 2) Returning participants (non Placewinners) placed in bracket as seeds by blind draw 3) First year participants placed in bracket by seed order by blind draw.

 

2) First round losers are eliminated from the tournament.

 

3) Quarterfinal losers go into a full wrestleback consolation bracket. Awards are given to top 6 teams.

 

 

 

 

 

BB my kid needs his paper typed ,if you want to pick up some extra cash.

bcb

[CoachDelgado]

We all know the way wrestling tournaments are held is different from football tournaments, basketball, and other sports where only crowning a champion is important. In other sports it is different. In cross country your place finish in the meet affects the team score. The first place runner scores 1 point, 2nd place 2, 3rd place 3 and so on. The top five finishers make up you score. So in a sport such as cross country to 100th place finisher is of importance.

 

Wrestling is obviously in the middle of those two extremes. The crowning of a champion is a great thing. The difference is in our tournament scoring 2nd through 6th place score points for the team, 1st - 16pts, 2nd - pts, 3rd - 9pts, 4th - 7 pts, 5th - 5 pts, 6th - 3 pts. In fact all consolation wrestlers, if they win matches in consolations, can add to the team score. In a tight team score race in any give year the difference could be if a wrestler got carried or not. In 1999 Bradley beat Soddy Daisy by only 9.5 points. True double elimination might have closed, or possibly widened, that gap.

[texas23]

We all know the way wrestling tournaments are held is different from football tournaments, basketball, and other sports where only crowning a champion is important. In other sports it is different. In cross country your place finish in the meet affects the team score. The first place runner scores 1 point, 2nd place 2, 3rd place 3 and so on. The top five finishers make up you score. So in a sport such as cross country to 100th place finisher is of importance.

 

Wrestling is obviously in the middle of those two extremes. The crowning of a champion is a great thing. The difference is in our tournament scoring 2nd through 6th place score points for the team, 1st - 16pts, 2nd - pts, 3rd - 9pts, 4th - 7 pts, 5th - 5 pts, 6th - 3 pts. In fact all consolation wrestlers, if they win matches in consolations, can add to the team score. In a tight team score race in any give year the difference could be if a wrestler got carried or not. In 1999 Bradley beat Soddy Daisy by only 9.5 points. True double elimination might have closed, or possibly widened, that gap.

 

yes,,,I believe that is why they added the duals (team) championship v. the traditonal tournament. Yet we keep the team tournament score, even though it is the individual tournament. And the last sentence seem to mean you can not give any consideration to the "what if" other than it would be different. And that is true.

 

I can tell you that the parents or fans that have gotten on here after the traditonal tournament and plead their displeasure with the seeding of their son, it has not one thing to do with the team score, ever. Two years ago, some mom was ranting on and on about how her son should have been second, but he was in the "wrong" bracket. It was not about team.

[CoachDelgado]

And some parents will complain about the draw of their kids no matter what. At least with double elimination every kid has a chance to redeem himself, not just the lucky 12 wrestlers who lose to semi-finalists.

 

The quarter-final bracket at 125 from last year's state tournament were brutally set up. There were 4 legit, high-quality wrestlers in that quarter, Usury, Geren, Cope and Fuller. Due to the carry setup only two out of a quarter-final can place. In a true double all four of them could have placed.