Coaches discussion

[dins8]

Back when I was coaching club soccer, I implemented a flat back four. What a difference it made in our team defense and transition offense! Our defenders better understood how to provide cover and balance for a teammate, and it taught us how to rely on each other and defend together. Moreover, our attack made major leaps and bounds, as we were able to create numbers up situations. We attacked with our OBs, and it left opposing defenses vulnerable and outnumbered. I find that transition offense is the concept that benefits the most from a zonal defense. Finally, a flat back four taught my kids proper defending and better prepared them for the college level. They better understood the necessary communication that a good defense demands, and they also understood that a good defense moves as a synchronized unit.

 

My old coach has informed me on several occasions of his concerns that high school coaches are unwilling to adapt to a more modern defense. Thus, he gets perturbed with how much reteaching he has to do when a poorly trained player reaches the collegiate level. However, after making the transition back to the high school game, I have found that high school coaches are not obstinate or unwilling to implement a flat back; instead, they are just playing the hand they have been dealt. They understand that a traditional defense (with a deep sweeper) is less stressful to teach, and it is more comfortable for less experienced players. After all, not all HS soccer players are playing ODP; some are two sport athletes and just barely talented enough to compete on a varsity soccer team. Consequently, a HS coach often lacks the personnel to attack from the backs--to put it bluntly, a great deal of HS coaches hide their weaker defenders at OB. Many HS coaches rely on these players to be tenacious and clear the ball out of a dangerous situation. Conversely, on the club level and collegiate level, the OBs can be very talented, and they almost always possess the ability to make forward runs and pose as an offensive threat. Finally, HS players are often taciturn, and even those that have learned how to communicate seem to squeak like a pre-pubescent, rather then be assertive with their commands. Players that train together year round trust in each other and realize how much communication means to a good defense.

 

Where am I going with this? I guess I am asking if other HS coaches run into the same problems when trying to implement a good defense. Almost every year that I have coached High School soccer, I have started with a flat back and then become so frustrated that I switch back to what my players are comfortable with. Last year, we had to switch mid-season. We have started out with a flat back again this year, and it is the same old, same old. The talented and well-trained players embrace the switch, while the less experienced players are lost and overwhelmed.

 

Anyone else run into this problem? Thoughts?

 

dins

[socc3r]

Dins I agree. Most of the schools are lucky to have 1 or 2 quality defenders. Usually the top level club players that play defense are better served on the High School team as Center and Defensive Midfielders. I myself coached college soccer and we ran a flat back 4 there. It really does take a player with soccer skill and a high soccer IQ.

There are a lot of coaches that have the ability to teach the proper scheme, cover, and balance scheme to prepare players for college. They are just lacking the supporting cast.

[Nashville Panther]

A very good posting. I understand a good deal of your problem. There is another possible explanation of the lack of a flat back at many schools- the frequent changing of coaches. I am not sure of it is as big of a problem in all of Tennessee but in Nashville the turnover of coaches is very great. In District 10 A-AA which my team is in (Nashville) the teams have been relatively successful however in this year there are many new coaches.

 

Of the 9 teams in the district only 3 have coaches that have been with their team for longer than 7 years (FRA, East Lit. and Ezell). Hume Fogg and MLK's coaches are in their second season with their respective team. Goodpasture, DCA, CPA and Lipscomb are with new coaches this season.

 

DCA has had 4 coaches in 5 years. MLK has had 6 coaches (1 person had 2 different stints) in the past 10 years. Lipscomb is on its 3rd coach in 3 seasons.

 

There are many other teams with frequent coaching changes as well in AAA.

 

These changes makes it difficult for a coach to implement a new style. Often, the new coach feels compelled to go with what he was dealt first and once established make the change to a new system. Well, if the team is constantly changing the easiest system for the team is that of a sweeper.

 

I also agree on the level of talent needed to implement a flat back.

 

The number of teams in the state tourney that run a flat-back is very high compared to all teams in Tennesee. A testament to its effectiveness, but also a testament to the talent and stability in coaching.

[Laydown]

I wish more school would play flat back, i used to play center d and really hated our sweeper stopper system. I think one of the reasons the flat back is not used as much in some high school teams is speed. In college, everyone is fast, but in high school, some players can outpace defenders so much that the team has to resort to using a stopper. I think a lot of coaches are also afraid of changing a system when players are so comfortable with it. I would love to see more flat 4s, and hope it will be more prevolent in seasons to come.

[BigG]

Dins, I think you are right on many counts, and even when you have talented defenders, you still play with the hand that is dealt to you.

 

For example... in my tenure at CAK, I have played flat back 3, diamond d marking backs, and diamond d zonal. It all depended on my players and their individual skill sets. I actually never hide my weakest players on defense, in fact, I like to build my talent from the back. I think zone defense is the best defense to play in highschools, because it causes your defenders to play smart instead of playing "hard". BUT, it takes smart players and good communication.

 

It is also good to have the same coaching staff for several years, because it takes a long time to get a really good game plan in effect. With our target based offense, it usually takes 2 months for a new player to "get it", and even then, they have to be on the same page as our inside mids.

 

I think Coach Turner does an outstanding job with his defensive training, and it is very frustrating to play against it. While I don't like the style of his quick counter attack offense, you can't argue that it isn't affective for them, especially with Webster up on top.

 

I am offensive minded, and concentrate a lot on that portion of our scheme. Fortunately I have great assistant coaches, who help a lot on defense and keeper training (which the latter mostly gets ignored in highschool since most coaches aren't trained to teach them much, myself included!)

[MVM]

Dins, I think you are right on many counts, and even when you have talented defenders, you still play with the hand that is dealt to you.

 

For example... in my tenure at CAK, I have played flat back 3, diamond d marking backs, and diamond d zonal. It all depended on my players and their individual skill sets. I actually never hide my weakest players on defense, in fact, I like to build my talent from the back. I think zone defense is the best defense to play in highschools, because it causes your defenders to play smart instead of playing "hard". BUT, it takes smart players and good communication.

 

It is also good to have the same coaching staff for several years, because it takes a long time to get a really good game plan in effect. With our target based offense, it usually takes 2 months for a new player to "get it", and even then, they have to be on the same page as our inside mids.

 

I think Coach Turner does an outstanding job with his defensive training, and it is very frustrating to play against it. While I don't like the style of his quick counter attack offense, you can't argue that it isn't affective for them, especially with Webster up on top.

 

I am offensive minded, and concentrate a lot on that portion of our scheme. Fortunately I have great assistant coaches, who help a lot on defense and keeper training (which the latter mostly gets ignored in highschool since most coaches aren't trained to teach them much, myself included!)

 

G .....COACHING STAFF.....KEEPER COACH......???? When our HS coach wants another coaches opinion, He starts talking to himself, cause he's the only coach out there. /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

[SnakeDr]

Dins, I believe the problem here lies within the coaches ability to be patient. Most kids on a HS team do not play together year round, thus they only together for about 4 months out of the year. It takes a long time before HS players can build the chemistry necessary to execute the flat 4 zonal defense. I can only stress to you guys to stick with it. Of course, it will look a bit juvenile the first few games. But if you stick with it, the players will soon see their mistakes and learn from them. After all, the best teacher is experience.

 

So my advice to coaches is to stick to your guns, let the mistakes come early and often. If they are still coming later on in the season, you better ditch it and try to keep your head above water.

 

What are your feelings on this Dins?

[osomuerte]

While I am yet to succeed in getting a HS team to run a flat back, I think the key to success is to start young. Even if the varsity team is playing a sweeper, it doesn't mean JV can't play flatback. Middle school would be even better, but few HS coaches have any influence on that level. If you can get the younger players comfortable with the scheme, I'd expect it to stay with them when they become varsity. Plus it has been my experience that (most) JV players are more open to change and experimentation than varsity players.

 

It's still a two to four year process, but it's something that can be done now. And if the adjustment period leads to a few losses while the defenders relearn their roles, most programs are unlikely to replace a coach for JV losses as long as the varsity team isn't losing ground.

 

My 2 cents. One day I'll coach a team with a large enough JV program to try it.

[woodeng]

I wish more school would play flat back, i used to play center d and really hated our sweeper stopper system. I think one of the reasons the flat back is not used as much in some high school teams is speed. In college, everyone is fast, but in high school, some players can outpace defenders so much that the team has to resort to using a stopper. I think a lot of coaches are also afraid of changing a system when players are so comfortable with it. I would love to see more flat 4s, and hope it will be more prevolent in seasons to come.

 

 

I'd have to agree, speed does make teams revert to a sweeper. But the only way to break with a tradition is to stop doing it and not going back. And start players playing the flat back 4 young, but thats easier said than done. I know in Italy, they start coaching defensive techniques and tactics when they are 8. With over half their training time dedicated to the back four.

 

The real problem is, whether the coach wants results fast or to develop a programme which produces a flat back-four and upto date soccer tactics. And its a results business, thats what the parents, players and school wants!

[BigG]

G .....COACHING STAFF.....KEEPER COACH......???? When our HS coach wants another coaches opinion, He starts talking to himself, cause he's the only coach out there. /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

 

/tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> MVM... yeah, I know I am very fortunate.

[Staggie]

/tongue.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":P" border="0" alt="tongue.gif" /> MVM... yeah, I know I am very fortunate.

 

 

 

I personally would love to run the flat back, but communication is a huge problem on my team. My team is almost all international players. If they were all one nationality that would be fine but I have 7 countries represented. Lots of talent but hard to develop that chemistry between so many different nationalities. I did like the idea about introducing it to the JV. I have a JV squad of 20 so that would be a good idea to at least start teaching them that system as well as the 4-4-2 with a sweeper that we use now. Maybe a few years down the road we would be in a position to run it.

 

P.S. For those that keep up with such things I was the coach at Glencliff the last 9 years but transfered to Antioch this year( those schools are in metro nashville for those that dont know)

[Cheamilion]

I think back my freshmen year we ran a flat back, but we have since turned into a Diamond D. But our defense has alot of speed, and quality defenders.

 

We allow our defenders, any of them, to come up if they feel they possess a chance to score. Nearly everyone of them can make it back to the D from the other side of the field before the ball can. We also just cover for one another, if one person leaves his position, the person who's position he takes, takes the defenders old one till the defender gets back.

 

Just standard soccer stuff.